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[gimlet]

I think everyone is missing the point, especially those arguing for "I should be able to do things according to my own standards, if my intent is pure or I have some other excuse".

The issue is what TOADY'S standards are.  It's his board, he has absolute power, what you "think" should be acceptable is irrelevant.  People should be trying to adhere to where Toady sets the line, and even well beyond that, with politeness and caution.   Plus it's just damn disrespectful to make him waste time chasing down people over this trivial BS.

OP wanted to know what to do?  "Figure out what you did to attract his attention, dial it back well beyond that, and go forth and sin no more".   Don't obscure that by 3 pages of largely irrelevant discussion.

[IHaveAFewQuestions]

I am confused.

[Neonivek]

I think everyone is missing the point, especially those arguing for "I should be able to do things according to my own standards, if my intent is pure or I have some other excuse".

The issue is what TOADY'S standards are.  It's his board, he has absolute power, what you "think" should be acceptable is irrelevant.  People should be trying to adhere to where Toady sets the line, and even well beyond that, with politeness and caution.   Plus it's just damn disrespectful to make him waste time chasing down people over this trivial BS.

OP wanted to know what to do?  "Figure out what you did to attract his attention, dial it back well beyond that, and go forth and sin no more".   Don't obscure that by 3 pages of largely irrelevant discussion.

Ok... well...

If Toadyone is giving you a warning he gives you a warning... as Toadyone...

THAT is why the conversation seems irrelevant to you. You think "IHaveAFewQuestions" is being moderated.

[Caz]

THAT is why the conversation seems irrelevant to you. You think "IHaveAFewQuestions" is being moderated.

That is literally the topic of the whole thread...

[gimlet]

OK, I read the thread incrementally over the days it's been active and took some lines out of context/from memory that gave me the impression that discussion was more directly advice to OP.    Anyway I don't think it hurt to reiterate the concrete advice for the actual OP, to make sure it didn't get diluted by the abstract discussion.

[helmacon]

I think everyone is missing the point, especially those arguing for "I should be able to do things according to my own standards, if my intent is pure or I have some other excuse".

The issue is what TOADY'S standards are.  It's his board, he has absolute power, what you "think" should be acceptable is irrelevant.  People should be trying to adhere to where Toady sets the line, and even well beyond that, with politeness and caution.   Plus it's just damn disrespectful to make him waste time chasing down people over this trivial BS.

OP wanted to know what to do?  "Figure out what you did to attract his attention, dial it back well beyond that, and go forth and sin no more".   Don't obscure that by 3 pages of largely irrelevant discussion.

Ok sure, but the thread has taken on a life of it's own and people are having intelligent and productive conversations. There is no reason we need to limit the thread if we have a good thing going, right?

Like "retarded", or "gay", or "queer", or any other euphemism for a term that society finds "difficult" (or even "icky"), it has ridden the roller coaster of being first offered as the accepted term, become saturated in the all too human malignancy for things that are percieved to be different, and come to mean something entirely different from their etymological roots.

The colloquialization of word like "Gay" and "Queer" has actualy taken some very interesting turns. They were ascribed to define people of differing sexualites at some point, diverging from thier original meanings, but were eventually taken as "offensive" words by the general populace. When public opinion shifted and differing suxualities became more accepted, the words stopped being seen as offensive and became acceptable to use again. (Primarily, the associated feelings were no longer universal, and it became unsuitable as an adjective.) There was also some concerted effort to pull the words from use out of context.
They exist as perfectly acceptable and commonly used words, yet completely divorced from thier original meaning. The english language has naturally expanded to cover new concepts. It's fascinating when you think about it.

[Antioch]

Retarded is a term is use to describe severe and preventable stupidity.

Oddly enough it would never even consider using the term to describe someone with a mental handicap.

In my vocabulary retarded is an insult, just as words like idiot, asshole and asshole are. The entire point of those words is to offend.

I don't even see the 'original' meaning of using it to describe a person with a mental handicap as a valid use of the word anymore. 

[Flying Dice]

I think everyone is missing the point, especially those arguing for "I should be able to do things according to my own standards, if my intent is pure or I have some other excuse".

The issue is what TOADY'S standards are.  It's his board, he has absolute power, what you "think" should be acceptable is irrelevant.  People should be trying to adhere to where Toady sets the line, and even well beyond that, with politeness and caution.   Plus it's just damn disrespectful to make him waste time chasing down people over this trivial BS.

OP wanted to know what to do?  "Figure out what you did to attract his attention, dial it back well beyond that, and go forth and sin no more".   Don't obscure that by 3 pages of largely irrelevant discussion.

Ok sure, but the thread has taken on a life of it's own and people are having intelligent and productive conversations. There is no reason we need to limit the thread if we have a good thing going, right?

Like "retarded", or "gay", or "queer", or any other euphemism for a term that society finds "difficult" (or even "icky"), it has ridden the roller coaster of being first offered as the accepted term, become saturated in the all too human malignancy for things that are percieved to be different, and come to mean something entirely different from their etymological roots.

The colloquialization of word like "Gay" and "Queer" has actualy taken some very interesting turns. They were ascribed to define people of differing sexualites at some point, diverging from thier original meanings, but were eventually taken as "offensive" words by the general populace. When public opinion shifted and differing suxualities became more accepted, the words stopped being seen as offensive and became acceptable to use again. (Primarily, the associated feelings were no longer universal, and it became unsuitable as an adjective.) There was also some concerted effort to pull the words from use out of context.
They exist as perfectly acceptable and commonly used words, yet completely divorced from thier original meaning. The english language has naturally expanded to cover new concepts. It's fascinating when you think about it.

It's fookin' annoying is what it is. I've heard people unironically be offended by the use of "gay" in the original sense in my state's song more than the instances of "darkies" that got the lyrics censored by the state assembly. (Never mind that Steven Foster was a die-hard abolitionist, took heavy inspiration from Uncle Tom's Cabin when writing it, and that the entire song is a mourning of the condition of slaves in the South tinged with homesick loss and bitterly ironic stabs at the veneer of bullshit rich Southern whites tried to layer over the institution of slavery. But that's enough ranting about historical ignorance trying to forget the mistakes of the past instead of learning from them.)

Linguistic shifts are interesting to watch, but they tend to leave behind a trail of perfectly good words broken by the twin rods of human hate and ignorance. :X

[Catmeat]

I'm retarded

[wierd]

Retarded is a term is use to describe severe and preventable stupidity.

Oddly enough it would never even consider using the term to describe someone with a mental handicap.

In my vocabulary retarded is an insult, just as words like idiot, asshole and asshole are. The entire point of those words is to offend.

I don't even see the 'original' meaning of using it to describe a person with a mental handicap as a valid use of the word anymore.

the term was originally employed, due to its meaning.

to "retard", means to hold back, suppress, or diminish.

You find this original, correct, and proper use on sheet music, where one is instructed to retard a note or stanza-- usually abbreviated as "ret."

a *person* who suffers from "retardation", is likewise held back from their normal potential, has a partial suppression of cogitative faculties, and has diminished social standing due to this handicap.

It was meant to be a cold, impersonal, and dispassionate descriptor, while at the same time conveying the panoply of states and conditions associated with a mental handicap, through this associated state.

Its use as an invective and perjorative term came from popular use, by people who were far from cold, impersonal, or dispassionate.

the word is a casualty.  It is not responsible for the vitriol it has been soaked in, any more than the word "slow" is, which it replaced I might add.

the statement, "I am retarded" literally says "I have been held back, diminished, and suppressed."

Everything else is baggage heaped onto it by people who either cannot or will not stop spreading hatreds for people who are different.

I meant what i said before.  Getting angry, censuring (and censoring) people who lash out this way does not solve the problem.

[Tiruin]

Retarded is a term is use to describe severe and preventable stupidity.

Oddly enough it would never even consider using the term to describe someone with a mental handicap.

In my vocabulary retarded is an insult, just as words like idiot, asshole and asshole are. The entire point of those words is to offend.

I don't even see the 'original' meaning of using it to describe a person with a mental handicap as a valid use of the word anymore.

the term was originally employed, due to its meaning.

to "retard", means to hold back, suppress, or diminish.

You find this original, correct, and proper use on sheet music, where one is instructed to retard a note or stanza-- usually abbreviated as "ret."

a *person* who suffers from "retardation", is likewise held back from their normal potential, has a partial suppression of cogitative faculties, and has diminished social standing due to this handicap.

It was meant to be a cold, impersonal, and dispassionate descriptor, while at the same time conveying the panoply of states and conditions associated with a mental handicap, through this associated state.

Its use as an invective and perjorative term came from popular use, by people who were far from cold, impersonal, or dispassionate.

the word is a casualty.  It is not responsible for the vitriol it has been soaked in, any more than the word "slow" is, which it replaced I might add.

the statement, "I am retarded" literally says "I have been held back, diminished, and suppressed."

Everything else is baggage heaped onto it by people who either cannot or will not stop spreading hatreds for people who are different.

I meant what i said before.  Getting angry, censuring (and censoring) people who lash out this way does not solve the problem.

wierd got the history there :O "preventable" stupidity is a very crude way of going about thinking about the meaning behind the word though. Severe...and preventable stupidity, really sounds impressionistic rather than its actual meaning.

And aye, it has become an insult due to people using it as an insult--it has been changed in places because of better descriptors, however still being used in other places wherein it isn't considered an insult due to how it is understood and used.

One of the prominent ideas that come to my mind about the censorship of these kinds of things is in the concern of the act reinforcing the 'misuse' of it. :O Which does make sense, although I'm in a country that isn't as censor...emphasis-like(?) like America? but talking about it is always better off given the context.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

*gasp*

I AM OFFENDED!!!!!1!

=======

No, not really, but I'd like to point out that people with mentally disabled friends or relative can be, and are justified in being, offended when people mock "retarded" or use it to mean "bad" or "stupid".

I just so happen to be in the category of "has relative with mental disability", but I'm also in the category of "mellow fellow who tries to assume the best." My point is that I'm not offended, but some non-retarded people are justified in being offended when people mock retarded people. (Of course, not all uses of the word "retarded" are mocking, which... apparently some people don't get.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

yes, that was on purpose

[wierd]

I am not arguing that having the use of such words does not cause pain; it most certainly does.

What I am arguing, is that lashing out while feeling that pain does nothing to stop the real source of that pain, and instead, only entrenches and enshrines the source of that pain.

It is the natural reaction to try to hold things that hurt us away from ourselves, but when those things are people, the act hurts the people being cast aside. This act hardens them against seeing or seeking human empathy for their victims, and does so in both directions.  It only makes one victim feel a teeny bit better, while setting the stage for others to be hurt brutally, and remorselessly.

again, alcoholic parents are a good example of this dynamic.

why do people start drinking heavily?

usually, it is because of one or both of these circumtances: 1) they want to fit in, or feel like a part of something bigger than themselves.  Such as drinking at a social function, or "being with the boys".  2) they drink to forget about something. For just a few precious moments, they are free from the constant reality that haunts them. It could be crippling debt, a loveless marriage, a crushing obligation they will never be free from, you name it.

they start drinking, and the euporia it causes becomes the substitute for what they really need-- love, acceptance, and understanding-- in the first case, it brings them closer to a group of people, despite the harm it does them (and they would rather fight an deny than give that up), or it becomes a direct release from an eternal mental torture-- again, rather fight and deny than go back to the world where that pain is.

it conditions people: they become dependent, cannot go on without it, but it is unhealthy. it kills them slowly, and in reality, makes life worse-- for themselves and others. alcoholics are victims, and need sympathy and love. they can never hope to live the good and healthy way again without it.

but they hurt the people that genuinely love them by getting drunk. again, and again, and again.

if nothing is done, the alcoholic makes their loved ones grow ever more distant, makes them afraid to feel love for fear of being hurt, and in many cases, draws them into the grasp of alcohol or other drugs later in life as well. the alcoholic loses everything. the world does not care about them, and eventually they die. alone, and unhappy.  true tragedy.

it is easy to say profitless things, like saying the alcoholic is weak, or bad for being how they are. so easy. but does that really help the problem of alcoholism, or enshrine it?

likewise with biggotry.

the biggot hates, because of one or both of two things. 1) they are afraid 2) they need to feel like part of something.

in the first case, they may see outsiders as a threat to themselves or others.  The recent madness with mosslem refugees is a keen example, as are the terrorists themselves.

in the second, people who are different invoke that all too natural, primordial dread. people who are the "same" do the opposite. familiar faces, ideas, customs-- they are reassuring. they remind us that we are part of something bigger than ourselvess, and we need that feeling to live. however, a person in pain instinctively looks for people who feel the same pain, because they desperately need that understanding. the shared pain, shared fears, and shared hatred create a toxic community that spawns more hate, more pain, more fear.

when they are censured for the verbal or even physical violence they cause others, it only reinforces, in their mind, why they hate. it forges the toxic communities together in the fire of passion and pain.

if they are ever to come out of it, pushing them right back in is the wrong way to do it. more, the act of pushing them away hardens yourself in exactly the same way. you too become infected by the toxic hate.

understanding this, and choosing to endure being hurt, to pull someone out of that addiction, out of that fire of hate and into loving arms where they need to be, is hard.

very hard.

but it is the only real way.

anger, offense, retribution... easy things that make it worse.

compassion, care, concern, love?

hard things that make it better.

[helmacon]

I'm gonna give a personal example real quick in regards to what you have said about fighting these problems.

when they are censured for the verbal or even physical violence they cause others, it only reinforces, in their mind, why they hate. it forges the toxic communities together in the fire of passion and pain.

if they are ever to come out of it, pushing them right back in is the wrong way to do it. more, the act of pushing them away hardens yourself in exactly the same way. you too become infected by the toxic hate.

understanding this, and choosing to endure being hurt, to pull someone out of that addiction, out of that fire of hate and into loving arms where they need to be, is hard.

It's all good and well to talk about what needs to be done to help these people, but in the real world things don't happen so easily.
 My dad, for example, is extremely racist. When I first really got old enough to realise this, at first I was angry. I realised soon enough what you were saying, that fighting with my dad only made him more determined to stick to these beliefs. I started to take a different approach. To debate with him instead of fight him. To talk through why he felt and thought the way he did. I had to be well informed, able to refute and explain all the things he dug up online to throw at me. Over the years, I've had a lot of long and serious talks with him. I had to acquiesce on other topics, because denying everything that he believed (no matter how gently, or intelligently) had the same effect in shutting him out. I had to create common ground to approach him on, even if that common ground was a fallacy. It was work, and It sucked, and it exposed me at a young age to a constant stream of vitriol and regressive views. I did it anyways. I loved my dad, and I fought for him. By the time I graduated highschool, I actualy saw real change in him. Maybe not a tolerance, but a more critical attitude. He wouldn't jump to race anymore as a conclusion for things, he would research things and look for other causes first. A lot of times, that research brought him to the conclusion that things weren't quite as he had assumed. I think he still had that gut instinct for racial assumption in him, but he learned not to trust it, and he was more tolerant as a result.
All of this was useless.
When I left for college, he suddenly no longer had someone to talk about these things with. No-one who held non-racist views would even discuss the issues with him, because society has conditioned people to immediately reject and shun people who exhibit any vestige of regressive beliefs. Like you said, he turned to like minded company because those are the only people that would talk about it. It dosent matter how much you try to help someone, if society rejects the problem, they will be rejected and return to the problem.
This can be overcome to some extent with a problem like alcohol. If the person can obtain some objectivity of the situation, they can recognise how they have a problem, and persist despite societal rejection. This is possible to do with an external problem like alcohol or tobacco. With internal things (like racial hatred) It is almost impossible to separate it from thier personal identity.

Anyway, I came back from college last summer and was shocked at some of the things I heard coming out of his mouth. It was worse than I ever remember him being. I think a lot of it was stirred up by the election this year too. He is a staunch life-long republican, and hearing his side constantly berated by the media as "deplorable" and racists (even if there was some truth to it) drove him back to being such. He couldn't turn on the TV without seeing people mocking and demonizing his side. He couldn't stop to examine what Trump was saying for himself, because it was a challenge. To question his own side, that was what these people wanted. That was defeat. He had to fight. It didn't matter what the republican base was saying, it was his side and he had to support it. It didn't help that a lot of what was being said was right in line with that suppressed gut instinct. He latched onto that community and it put him right back to square one.

I dont have the energy or the time to support him anymore. I love him, but I can't do it. It would just be a waste of my time, and a bad influence on me. It dosent matter anyways. No matter how much you love and support someone, no matter how much you fight for them, and wait for them, it dosent matter. Society has the final word.

I know that sounds pessimistic, but it is the truth. The only way you can help them is if they are helping themselves, and if they are helping themselves then they probably don't need you to be helping them anyways. In the end, there's nothing you can do but grit your teeth and mind your own business. What is, is, and you can't change it.

What makes me even sadder is that I can see how it has affected me. That gut instinct i kept talking about? I have it to some degree to. I'm aware of it, and it's not a part of my identity. I will never let it effect my actions or change the way I think, but it is there. I hate that. I hate that I have to have that. The thing is, it probably wouldn't be there if I hadn't put myself at the forefront of his own problem. If I had just grit my teeth and stayed silent whenever he said something like that, I probably would have turned out fine, if a little estranged from my family. I'm quickly becoming estranged from them anyways.

My point is, what you propose does not always work. It's the difference between theoretical physics and physics in the real world. Sure, in a perfect world that would be the optimal course of action, but in the real world it often just gets more people hurt.

I hate to say it, but some people are beyond help. All you can do is try to save yourself, and get out as soon as you can.

[wierd]

From your own account, he was making progress.  The issue is that society favors ostracism and blame, and when you could not be there to help him climb out, no- one else was there to take your place. He fell back in, and fell in hard.

This happens with alcoholics too.  Its why they can't ever drink again, and never fully recover, even after being sober for years.

Recovering bigots need support the way recovering alcoholics do.  Society is just not recognizing this.  For a long time, alcoholism was treated just as badly.

My replies have been more to draw awareness of this social ignorance than anything else.

It is to remind people that shunning people they disagree with, or who suffer problems from hated, while claiming to be supportive of the victims of intolerance and hate, are doing great harm. It is a reasoned plea for them to stop doing that, so that people like your dad have people to talk it out with that won't pull them back into that pit.

That situations like yours happen, and why they happen, are why we must love strangers, even when they exude hate and bitterness at us.

It is very rare that somebody is completely beyond help. That such people won't seek help is not nearly as important as doing everything possible to assure that help is there if they do look for it.