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[Frumple]

Yeah, I agree with Tiruin about that, Martinuzz: it's very insulting for someone in a European country to act like any non-caucasian developing nation who's leader you don't like is automatically running things like Castro or Stalin. The Philippines has problems but it's still a vibrant democracy with a plurality of opinions and media.

I mean. I'd say the thread title is pretty apt, myself. Largely the general treatment of the subject throughout the thread, too. Regardless of what else the guy's done, he has very literally compared himself to Hitler, stated the intent to match body counts, and has been dedicating effort and resources towards creating conditions that will, almost certainly, cause a pretty substantial amount of dead people, many of which will be innocent of meaningful wrongdoing. Already has, really. It is, in fact, running things like a stalin or castro. Apeshit Hitler-insane is a good descriptor. It's a fair bit insulting, sure. Some things deserve to be insulted. When you put mass killing civilians (directly or through intentional deprivation, it doesn't much matter) on the table, you ruin quite thoroughly whatever dignity you had or respect you may have previously been owed.

Doesn't mean what positive things he's done aren't there, or that they're not maybe doing good things elsewhere, or that everything isn't going well besides that little bit of a mass murder campaign, but, well. No matter how many houses you build or people you help, you murder one person in cold blood and it's the clink or the grave for you. You make statements and commit to the actions focused on in this thread and you're not getting away from the One Goat principle. Shouldn't, really. Some things you can't really balance out.

Understanding the context and whatnot behind the support is important, but that doesn't mean the guy hasn't -- hadn't already, really, but this was the headline writing nail in the coffin --  gone rather permanently over the metaphorical line.

[Trapezohedron]

@Tir

Really? Well I suppose on the news side it wouldn't garner a lot of sympathy from the locals seeing as the voters already waived their rights for human rights, Wouldn't bring them sufficient topic fodder. That said, if it did appear then I missed it hot dang.

I'll probably need to read up a lot on Stalin and Castro before giving my two cents, but it feels like the discussion is already a mite bit giving their definite conclusion, that much I'll agree with Tir's sentiments. It does not make me, however, any confident about Duterte because apparently he did eke out an 'apology', but exclusively to the Jewish community, "not that I'm wrong, but I didn't want the Jews to tinker with the memory."

I'd compromise halfway and give this thread an equivalent, more formal, less clickbaity title, seeing as the Duts doesn't seem to have a single ounce of decorum within him and is constantly insulting communities left and right.

[martinuzz]

Woo, information. Rather than people just saying passive-aggressive 'we know better' because they're unaware of the bigger picture that isn't being reported and then get the wrong interpretation because other local people who have say otherwise.

I figured it might be because it's not safe to post anything but we love the glorious leader, for someone close to the recieving end of mass murder.

Try to figure thinking about your reaction before attacking others and saying we're "defending" something. Please.
Because in our culture--this kind of condescension is very, very...impolite, to say the least.
We could also do with a better OP title in that regards.

Please stop ranting at everything I post about Duterte and trying to make it look like I am insulting you or just flamebaiting with uninformed opinions. I just pass on what my local media reports, because as a human being I think what's happening in your country is very worrisome.

And why a different title? I think it's pretty appropriate and to the point. I mean it's not like I am comparing Duterte to Hitler or anything. Didn't need to, he did that himself.

[martinuzz]

Yeah, I agree with Tiruin about that, Martinuzz: it's very insulting for someone in a European country to act like any non-caucasian developing nation who's leader you don't like is automatically running things like Castro or Stalin. The Philippines has problems but it's still a vibrant democracy with a plurality of opinions and media.

'any non-caucasuan developing nation'. Hear hear. What the actual fuck? I don't give a shit about ethnicity. And what leader exactly did I compare to Castro or Stalin? Your generalisation is completely out of line.

And I don't agree on the Phillipines being a vibrant democracy in the light of current affairs. Which saddens me.

E: Also why I ask the change of title is because all the talk is going around the President--when that's not really the case considering the context of it all. This isn't a one-man government It also sounds kinda crude given the emotional pull of how its worded.

Don't blame me for that, blame Duterte. I am not the one giving press conferences comparing myself to Hitler and announcing I will take pleasure in slaughtering 3 million people. ANd calling Obama a son of  a whore and threatening to ass fuck the UN.

I get what you're saying though, Duterte is just one man in a larger political system. But he is the public face of it.

EDIT: Duterte has apologized to the jewish community about his remarks. He said it was never his intention to befoul the memory of the 6 million jews killed by Hitler, and offered 'sincere and deep apologies'.

Well, at least he got the numbers right this time.

[Tiruin]

[...]

Please stop ranting at everything I post about Duterte and trying to make it look like I am insulting you or just flamebaiting with uninformed opinions. I just pass on what my local media reports, because as a human being I think what's happening in your country is very worrisome.

And why a different title? I think it's pretty appropriate and to the point. I mean it's not like I am comparing Duterte to Hitler or anything. Didn't need to, he did that himself.

I do not mean to cause offense by my requests there--I understand that it's something REALLY impactful to talk about because of concerns, but reacting with the kind of wording at present of the OP is...it makes it really feel like sensationalizing when the process of asking or creating a topic to talk about these issues or seek more information from others since there are B12ers who are pretty much Filipinos here, help a lot more.

I'm not even ranting--I'm reacting to how you have responded Maybe it's a cultural thing there where its ok to contrast for added detail of comparison, but leveling these things in the way you did in the past does not give off a good impression. Even if I can get that it isn't intentional only as it is.

And uh, yes. I get the last paragraph. If the WTF score internationally is O_o, locally we're all O_O at that. Also at how international media outlets seem to be presenting only a tad bit less than what local media is reporting (ie we do cover the context in why he's saying that, or at least there's added notes in our news regarding Duterte handling the output or such about his words--they're sprinkled here and there on articles in the Philippine Star, but they do give more insight to it all.)

We're also  about this as much as you though. So let it be known that there is no misunderstanding in the stance of these--as human beings within the country you are concerned with, let it be known that we share your worry, but also seek to alleviate this worry from blowing up into anything more than it is now.

Edoot: Reelya's post down there right below mine highlights EXACTLY what I'm reacting to. I'm really wondering why that wasn't in mind there and it'd help if you explained that too? o_O

And I don't agree on the Phillipines being a vibrant democracy in the light of current affairs. Which saddens me.

Duuuuuuuuuude, you're doing that thiiiiiiiiiiing again. :I
Whyyyy. I:
Also the news doesn't report on everything internally here, in international matters It is being handled, but there's a lot that's not being reported in detail x_x

EDIT: Duterte has apologized to the jewish community about his remarks. He said it was never his intention to befoul the memory of the 6 million jews killed by Hitler, and offered 'sincere and deep apologies'.

Well, at least he got the numbers right this time.

If I can just cut out these bits of paper in the news that flies by daily here and post it online (...it doesn't scan well, like at all), I would :I Because people are interested in this, and I don't want it to go all sensationalizing for that matter.

[Reelya]

Martinuzz, let me go back to your original comment:

I figured it might be because it's not safe to post anything but we love the glorious leader

Basically this implies you can't see a difference between places like The Philippines where there are a plurality of voices and opinions, vs one-party dictatorships like Mubarak's Egypt, Cuba, USSR or North Korea where the state completely controls the media, and they crush anyone who dares to question the government.

If that was the case, then the system would have been built around getting Duterte into the leadership, but the evidence states otherwise. The last 4 presidents have been from parties other than the one that Duterte represents, and he's an ethnic outsider. And he's been in office exactly 3 months now. It's plainly illogical that he'd be able to build up some sort of KGB-style operation that personally answers to him in that amount of time.

In fact, Duterte himself seems to have built much of his career around questioning how the national government is running things, so theoretically they should have knocked him off years ago if that's how the Philippines works.

[Trapezohedron]

i suppose everyone loves hyperbole

aka that's why we get comparisons to absolute totalitarian governments like NorKor and other countries as Reelya stated. not that i'm siding with any side, since I'm starting to get even further disgusted by the supporting parties that condemned the "hitler" statement, and are now confusing comparison with contrast.

but i still stand by my opinion (keyword opinion) that it's too short to give any conclusive determination that automatically lumps him to committing genocide when he hasn't done it yet. sure he gets the advance pay portion but i'd say if people just voiced out the problems - the ones he listens to (the locals) he may lighten his crackdown, as he did say (reminder, he flip flops A LOT) that vigilantism is not good, just a few days after the first few EJK protests that had him say that every citizen has the volition to "do their job" concerning drug users/dealers/et al.

had that been the norkor kims that would have been silenced. were this still not a democracy, duterte would have already nuked these opinions asap.

but ofc this is just an opinion by a local, and probably irrelevant in the long scheme of things in which some of you guys will likely say "i told you so" when the shit hits the fan twice

and i suppose opinions like that are still valid in terms of gauging international community relationships. the dumbass president should really be addressing diplomatic blunders like these posthaste

[Dorsidwarf]

I'd just like to offer my personal opinion that a democracy that elects a professed would-be-mass-murderer, who says at the height of the elections , "Do not vote for me, there will be bloodshed", who promotes extrajudicial killings and imprisons hundreds of thousands of surrendered """criminals """ in squalid conditions, is not at all "vibrant", but sick to the core.

People like Duterte, whether your opinion on what he's doing is bad or good, do not get elected in a healthy democracy. They get elected in one where the stance against corruption is seen as important enough that mass murder is seen as an acceptable byproduct.

[Reelya]

http://www.rappler.com/nation/118004-crime-drugs-philippines

I think the main piece of context missing from the thread at this point is the exact nature of the drug and crime problem in Philippines.

89% of all drug offences in Phillipines involve something called "Shabu" - which is the local word for ice/meth. Meanwhile, incidence of crimes increases 5x between 2012-2013, and the ratio of solved crimes fell from ~90% to ~25% across the decade.

So in other words, it's a lot different to e.g. USA where the vast bulk of drug offenses are for pot. There's a massive ice epidemic in The Philippines, and erosion of police effectiveness and safety across the country - everywhere except Davao city, which actually increased it's safety rating to be classed the 5th safest city in the world. So maybe you can get why people might think that electing the mayor of that one safe city to run the country might be worth a shot.

[Dorsidwarf]

Yes, it's understandable, but I wasn't going into the very serious reasons why he was elected, but rather responding to the statement that nothing is wrong in a system where this fellow is popularly elected. Whether what is wrong was corruption in other parties, a drug epidemic, a figure's shady past being "forgotten", or a combination of the above isn't the discussion- the people of the Phillipines had their reasons to elect Duterte, reasons which were, to my knowledge, very powerful and pressing, but I strongly disapprove of subsequently shutting down legitimate criticism of a wannabe mass-murderer as western imperialism.

[Cheeetar]

I do not believe it is true that 'legitimate criticism' is being shut down in this thread.

[Dorsidwarf]

I do not believe it is true that 'legitimate criticism' is being shut down in this thread.

I guess if you choose to reject the legitimacy of criticism, you'll never be shutting down a legitimate complaint
Tiruin and co are complaining about the title when the entire focus of the thread is that Big D compared himself to Hitler as a good thing, and enthusiastically said he wanted to murder millions too.

But no, evil fowener can't talk shit about person that even they hate because.... reasons?

[Reelya]

There was no shutting down of legitimate criticism.

Implying Tiruin can't post on bay12 because "glorious leader" might come for her is not "legitimate criticism" of Duterte - it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I called it out for being ridiculous criticism.

[Dorsidwarf]

There was no shutting down of legitimate criticism.

Implying Tiruin can't post on bay12 because "glorious leader" might come for her is not "legitimate criticism" of Duterte - it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I called it out for being ridiculous criticism.

Yes, and there are no worthy takers of benefits in the U.K. Because one woman was abusing them for a comfortable work-free income.

When someone gives a specific fucking example of what they fucking mean, maybe you shouldn't fucking pick a moronic strawman example and argue against that.

[Yoink]

There was no shutting down of legitimate criticism.

Implying Tiruin can't post on bay12 because "glorious leader" might come for her is not "legitimate criticism" of Duterte - it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I called it out for being ridiculous criticism.

Spoiler: Don't fall from up there (click to show/hide)