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[My Name is Immaterial]

As the Seneschal, I would like to state that I have no opinion on this discussion.

[Criptfeind]

I think the real answer here is we get you a set of power armor. Power armor for everyone!

Edit:I'd be okay being in carapace armor though, which seems like it'd make Captain Strik happier.

[Kassire]

I mean, lets just see the GM's opinion on all of this I guess

[Stirk]

See what I am talking about?

No, not really. Light armor gets destroyed by auto guns, medium armor gets hurts, heavy armor is immune. Take it a step up and now medium armor gets destroyed and heavy armor gets hurt. A further step and everyone is destroyed. You could even take it a step down if you wished, so that light armor gets hurt and medium and heavy armor are immune.

This really seems to align with my whole point quite well that there's not a natural balance point to armor and that not having heavy armor doesn't actually solve a party balance issue because we've still got medium and light?

What? It clearly illustrates that the "light" and "medium" are fairly close together while the "heavy" is in a completely different tier. Do you not understand anything about the numbers I am throwing at you? Taking the most powerful armor available at start is obviously unbalanced no matter how you look at it -_-.

I think the real answer here is we get you a set of power armor. Power armor for everyone!

Edit:I'd be okay being in carapace armor though, which seems like it'd make Captain Strik happier.

At that point we could just pull up Deathwatch  . Stirk isn't a captain, he is a God. Treat him as such!

[Criptfeind]

What? It clearly illustrates that the "light" and "medium" are fairly close together while the "heavy" is in a completely different tier. Do you not understand anything about the numbers I am throwing at you? Taking the most powerful armor available at start is obviously unbalanced no matter how you look at it -_-.

I'll just -_- right back. You can just move the numbers around as you want to get the result you want. That's sorta part of my point? Lets say we fight some death world savages or hive gangers with spears or swords? In this instance the carapace armor makes you immune the same way that the power armor makes one immune to guns, and the light armor gets off about the same as the carapace against guns. Or if you wanta go upwards instead but less extreme then plasma guns, something like a heavy stubber gives you results that are close to making it so the dude in power armor is in the same place the dude with carapace armor against the lighter guns and the dude with carapace armor is in the place that the dude with light armor is in.

Hell, the GM doesn't even need to use the weapons printed in the book. -_-

It's just a sliding scale of enemies the gm can move us up and down on and we're not going to have an appropriate match with a disparate party. If we're not all the same then no matter where in the scale we end up on some people are going to be getting screwed or other people are going to be invincible.

If we do want to all get in line, good. Fine. Lets do it. Where's the line going to be then? And who's outside of it on ether side?

[GiglameshDespair]

Alright, people, lets not get snippy with each other.

[Stirk]

What? It clearly illustrates that the "light" and "medium" are fairly close together while the "heavy" is in a completely different tier. Do you not understand anything about the numbers I am throwing at you? Taking the most powerful armor available at start is obviously unbalanced no matter how you look at it -_-.

I'll just -_- right back. You can just move the numbers around as you want to get the result you want. That's sorta part of my point? Lets say we fight some death world savages or hive gangers with spears or swords? In this instance the carapace armor makes you immune the same way that the power armor makes one immune to guns, and the light armor gets off about the same as the carapace against guns. Or if you wanta go upwards instead but less extreme then plasma guns, something like a heavy stubber gives you results that are close to making it so the dude in power armor is in the same place the dude with carapace armor against the lighter guns and the dude with carapace armor is in the place that the dude with light armor is in.

Hell, the GM doesn't even need to use the weapons printed in the book. -_-

It's just a sliding scale of enemies the gm can move us up and down on and we're not going to have an appropriate match with a disparate party.

The differences is that the "light" and "medium" are a lot closer together. Lets say we are attacked by the deathworlders you mentoned. Everyone gets hit by 1d10R bow, with double their armor. The armor values become something like (3+2) becoming 8, and (5+4) becoming 14, and (10+4) becoming 24. The RT is immune, but the sehnchel has an 80% chance of not taking damage either and if he does get damaged will only take 1/2 wounds. The gap isn't that big there, compared to the gap between "medium" and "power". Now lets say we get transported to WWII and shot at with a Browning M2. We are looking at 1d10+5 damages pen 3 each and a bunch of hits. 5 senchel only gets his toughness bonuses, meaning he gets hit for a minimum of 4 damage. The RT gets to keep a bit of his armor, and has a 10% chance of not taking damage at all. The Power Armor has a 70% chance of not taking damage at all.

It isn't just "how immune something is to damage", its how much damage it does when they don't get hurt. I just thought this would be the easiest way to explain this.

[Criptfeind]

The differences is that the "light" and "medium" are a lot closer together. Lets say we are attacked by the deathworlders you mentoned. Everyone gets hit by 1d10R bow, with double their armor. The armor values become something like (3+2) becoming 8, and (5+4) becoming 14, and (10+4) becoming 24. The RT is immune, but the sehnchel has an 80% chance of not taking damage either and if he does get damaged will only take 1/2 wounds. The gap isn't that big there, compared to the gap between "medium" and "power". Now lets say we get transported to WWII and shot at with a Browning M2. We are looking at 1d10+5 damages pen 3 each and a bunch of hits. 5 senchel only gets his toughness bonuses, meaning he gets hit for a minimum of 4 damage. The RT gets to keep a bit of his armor, and has a 10% chance of not taking damage at all. The Power Armor has a 70% chance of not taking damage at all.

It isn't just "how immune something is to damage", its how much damage it does when they don't get hurt. I just thought this would be the easiest way to explain this.

Autogun 1d10+4 vs:
Light armor dude 5 damage soak: 10% chance of no damage, damage spread is 0 to 9 average is taking 4.
Carapace armor dude 9 damage soak: 50% chance of no damage damage spread is 0 to 5 average of zero damage
Heavy armor dude with 14 damage soak: 100% chance of no damage.

Spear thrust 1d10+3 (or +2 or +4 or however strong they are, I went with three because it "felt right" for some low life scum and it makes the numbers perfect) primitive vs:
Light armor dude 8 soak: 50% chance of no damage damage spread is 0 to 5 average of zero damage
Carapace  armor dude 15 soak: 100% chance of no damage.

Heavy stubber 1d10+5 3 pen vs:
Carapace armor dude 9 soak: 10% chance of no damage, damage spread is 0 to 9 average is taking 4.
Heavy armor dude with 14 damage soak: 60% chance of no damage damage spread is 0 to 4 average of -1  damage

So, you're right. The difference between the differences, 1, is bigger then zero. But not by a lot. (Also in actual fact the gap between medium and light is a lot bigger in this instance because the light armor suit doesn't cover the head. But I've been ignore that)

Ultimately, no, I'm not seeing the the huge difference here. It still just looks like a scale that you can ratchet up or down as you will.

Edit: Also I sorta forgot that the system uses exploding dice so all these numbers are inaccurate, but they are inaccurate all in the same way, which is the point.

[GiglameshDespair]

Done
Went with a multi-melta rather than a lascannon.
Better against groups with blast(1) and semi-auto, even if it has shorter range and 4d10+5 vs 5d10+10, but still pretty potent against tough stuff with the three-shot burst.

[Kassire]

Done
Went with a multi-melta rather than a lascannon.
Better against groups with blast(1) and semi-auto, even if it has shorter range and 4d10+5 vs 5d10+10, but still pretty potent against tough stuff with the three-shot burst.

Guess Bron's hiding his face?

[Stirk]

I like the pretty colors. And I messed up on some of the calculations of course (I was just kinda estimating in my head), but trying to subtract the average value doesn't really mean much. The dice only explode for PCs and important people, so it really isn't relevant unless we decide to betray each other for some reason or are in a "boss fight".

Maybe calculating the average damage taken in each armor would show it better?

It does require some more math, so correct me if I am wrong. While its easier to estimate the average of 1d10 by making it five, it is *technically* 5.5 (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10. Using this, we can probably get an idea of what the average damage would be in all cases. I'm keeping your color scheme, and am horrible at math, so brace yourself .

Autogun 1d10+4 vs:
Light armor average damage: ((0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)/10= 4.5
Carapace armor average damage: (1+2+3+4+5)/10= 1.5
Heavy armor dude average damage: (0*10)/10=0


Spear thrust 1d10+3 (or +2 or +4 or however strong they are, I went with three because it "felt right" for some low life scum and it makes the numbers perfect) primitive vs:
Light armor average damage: 1.5
Carapace average damage: 0

Heavy stubber 1d10+5 3 pen vs:
Light Armor average damage: (4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13)/10=8.5
Carapace armor average damage:  4.5.
Heavy armor dude average damage: (1+2+3+4)/10=1

Does that make things a bit more clear? And not covering the head isn't a *big* issue, it would be imperative for him to get a helmet if he gets in a bunch of gunfights, but called shots are -20 (with that little armor, he *might* actually be safer if people actively aimed at his head) , with only a 10% chance to get hit there otherwise.

Done
Went with a multi-melta rather than a lascannon.
Better against groups with blast(1) and semi-auto, even if it has shorter range and 4d10+5 vs 5d10+10, but still pretty potent against tough stuff with the three-shot burst.

Its not actually semi-auto, that was a typo fixed in the errata . Plus you can only start with weapons you have the skill for, and you *don't* have the skill for heavy weapons. (PG 272, under Acquisition and Starting Characters, second bullet-point.)

[Criptfeind]

It does require some more math, so correct me if I am wrong. While its easier to estimate the average of 1d10 by making it five, it is *technically* 5.5

Your right of course, I actually did it right for about half the numbers but then went back and edited them to incorrectly round down because... Uhhhhh. I don't really have an excuse. I guess I just hate correct numbers? Also I'm pretty sure that the green numbers are wrong, it's actually uh... (((5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14)/10)-9)=.5 for the average in the autogun vs carapace armor thing... Er. At least. I think that's how it works? I could be totally wrong there honestly, I've not done any math in a few years. >.> <.<. Although once again this is sorta one of those cases where it's totally fine because everything is wrong the same amount.

Does that make things a bit more clear?

Uh. Well. Yes. I think it makes what I was saying somewhat clear. To be honest the way you ask this makes me feel like perhaps our points have drifted a bit? I'm saying that having a dude in power armor fighting next to a dude in carapace armor is (roughly obviously not exactly) as troublesome from a game balance perceptive as having a dude in carapace armor fighting next to a dude in mesh armor. And that, if one of these comparisons is an issue, then presumably they both are. Of course, a dude in power armor fighting next to a dude in mesh armor is a far far worse problem ah hah.... Well. And tbh I sorta feel like that's what you're saying*?

^{*This seems to me like a really presumptuous question for me to be asking and makes me sound like an asshole but I can't figure out a way to word it better.}

[GiglameshDespair]

Hand of War covers the weapon proficiency.

Hadn't remembered that from when I read the errata months ago.
Bugger.
Guess I might take another look at stuff, but I'll do that tomorrow then.
I might go back to lascannon then.

[Stirk]

It does require some more math, so correct me if I am wrong. While its easier to estimate the average of 1d10 by making it five, it is *technically* 5.5

Your right of course, I actually did it right for about half the numbers but then went back and edited them to incorrectly round down because... Uhhhhh. I don't really have an excuse. I guess I just hate correct numbers? Also I'm pretty sure that the green numbers are wrong, it's actually uh... (((5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14)/10)-9)=.5 for the average in the autogun vs carapace armor thing... Er. At least. I think that's how it works? I could be totally wrong there honestly, I've not done any math in a few years. >.> <.<. Although once again this is sorta one of those cases where it's totally fine because everything is wrong the same amount.

Does that make things a bit more clear?

Uh. Well. Yes. I think it makes what I was saying somewhat clear. To be honest the way you ask this makes me feel like perhaps our points have drifted a bit? I'm saying that having a dude in power armor fighting next to a dude in carapace armor is (roughly obviously not exactly) as troublesome from a game balance perceptive as having a dude in carapace armor fighting next to a dude in mesh armor. And that, if one of these comparisons is an issue, then presumably they both are. Of course, a dude in power armor fighting next to a dude in mesh armor is a far far worse problem ah hah.... Well. And tbh I sorta feel like that's what you're saying*?

^{*This seems to me like a really presumptuous question for me to be asking and makes me sound like an asshole but I can't figure out a way to word it better.}

No, I had been using 5 as an average too, because it is really useful for doing stuff in your head. And double no, I calculated the average damage that went through the armor, rather than the average total damage. That is to say, that if you shot them with an autogun, they would take an average of 1.5 wounds. What you are calculating is the average total damage, which isn't as helpful here (the average against unarmored targets doesn't mean much when half the damage is erased.)

And I can't remember what I was saying anymore. I started to do homework and got sidetracked.

Hand of War covers the weapon proficiency.

Hadn't remembered that from when I read the errata months ago.
Bugger.
Guess I might take another look at stuff, but I'll do that tomorrow then.
I might go back to lascannon then.

I didn't notice that x_x. Where did you get the blackbone implant then? Artificer armor hardly matters if she becomes the most OP party-member naturally x_x.

The Lascannon also has a much better range than the microwave thing, it would overall be a better weapon even if multi had semi-auto.

[Criptfeind]

And double no

Ah, right, sorry. You see, the thing is, I'm just really dumb. You're totally right here.

And I can't remember what I was saying anymore. I started to do homework and got sidetracked.

Ah, well. Fair enough. If the GM wants us to wear carapace armor instead of the super armor that's cool. I just thought it's worth pointing out it's not as obvious a question as it sorta might appear?

Like...

Artificer armor hardly matters if she becomes the most OP party-member naturally x_x.

Is sorta a good addition to the armor talk as well >.>