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[Neonivek]

Whelp I chose to dive DEEPER into things about gender and sexuality and found that things are a lot... Derper than I realized.

I think I'll start being more active here to get the derp out of my system... But the current topic is very dry and seems to be about the causes of why women seem to not be as interested in STEM courses as men are.

Remember that women's choices in careers are typically more "practical" than men and more "socially conscious". Another reason why a lot of courses often do not appeal to women is because they are very "For their own sake".

A lot of this also has to do with perception. Engineering, for example, becomes a much more attractive course for women when the focus is on what they can do with engineering as opposed to being about engineering itself.

Perception changes have been observed and there are many careers that have switched to and from male and female dominance to the genders being about equal. This could represent a shift in the consciousness of either gender OR a shift in how they perceive a certain job.

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As for SJW you are REALLY going to need to be specific here. That term is overused and misused.

Heck THIS POST, even though it contradicts pop feminism, could be considered SJW speak.

[Caz]

In fact... What men to find super sexy in other men... are often turn offs in women.

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In fact... Why even have this as a trait?

Why have men find certain male traits attractive and desirable... If women find them abhorrent?

And likewise why have women find certain female traits attractive and desirable... If men find them abhorrent?

Yeah men and women have commonalities... But why is there such a difference between the two?

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The one thing I can guess... judging by these traits is...

Competition within the genders (Not for mates).

And finding traits that would be considered "sexy" or "attractive" in yourself means you will actively seek it out in order to one up your peers who would typically be gender segregated anyhow in nature.

And the fact that these traits aren't shared could be a way to limit it in some way.

Examples please. I think you are considering "men" and "women" as monolithic entities also.

Why have this as a trait? I'd counter "Why not?"

[Cthulhu]

People have different preferences.  You can Just-So it as an evolutionary strategy to increase general viability of different traits and prevents extreme trait development due to sexual selection (think peacocks' fuck-huge tails)

I know lots of women into musclegut and bears for example, something you'd typically associate with gay men.  You also have to consider that the media portrayal of sexuality doesn't reflect actual sexuality.

To answer the title, I've still got that backwards and archaic shitlord mentality that gender is the set of sociocultural expectations and norms attached to biological sex.  Some of them are derived at least partially from actual biological differences I'd guess it goes both ways to some extent

[Neonivek]

I was trying to be as vague as possible mostly because on the one hand it is subjective, another it is a very blanket thing, and three I REALLY didn't want to call anything out because I am afraid of this thread more than any others.

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ALSO damn Gender research... Now I learned I was wrong >_<

[Solifuge]

It's incredibly hard to sort out Cultural Programming versus Biology at a glance. What might seem like a hormonal or sex-linked trait is often just direct cultural instruction, or stuff we pick up from peers who were culturally programmed. ESPECIALLY when people are encouraged by parents and instructors and so on to make friends and associate with people of the same sex.

I'd argue a lot of the "Men are Stupid" and "Women are Impossible To Understand" garbage comes from being discouraged from spending time with people with a different biosex or gender than you. Same for "What is attractive". Lack of communication, due to clannishness/cliquishness, and all that.

[Neonivek]

Yeah one thing one person found out is that there is a huge difference between the imagined female ideal and what females actually go for.

So it is possible that it is supposition that only men like muscles.

Or rather what people think they want and what they, or other people, actually want are often different.

[TempAcc]

Why have so many of you murdered your avatars? Are you all slowly morphing into faceless, amorphous and asexual monstrosities? _{Should I learn to build a flamethrower, just in case?}

But ye, while a lot of stuff we take for granted of either gender is in no small part cultural programming, one has to ask if cultural programming of that kind isn't itself a natural manifestation of the human condition. After all, in the crushingly larger part of all human cultures, there's a significant divide between male and female roles, to the point that said divide seems pretty much natural.

What seems to change from culture to culture are the ideas of what should either gender strive for, and what makes one or another gender attractive.

[Fniff]

Why have so many of you murdered your avatars? Are you all slowly morphing into faceless, amorphous and asexual monstrosities? _{Should I learn to build a flamethrower, just in case?}

It's the latest avatarfad. It's like No Wave, except No Avatar.

[Solifuge]

Just to weigh in I guess: I appreciate some muscles, neatly-trimmed stubble, and slightly curvy hips/bottoms on dudes. And I like slightly-to-very androgynous gals with similar hips/legs too?

TempAcc, I could launch into the Obstetrical Dilemma, the historical invention of the Gender Role, my usual diatribe on Cultural Evolution behaving similarly to biological evolution, despite being intentionally designed, etc. But I have done it like a billion times by now, and the people who remember are probably sick of it. But I will say that forces similar to convergent evolution caused similar Gender Roles to emerge in many cultures the world over, particularly in areas where living is harder and mortality was higher. Gender Roles were about recuperating lost population quickly, in the days before medicine, hygine, and you know... most tools.

P.S. I just haven't drawn a new avatar in a while, and I wanted to retire the one I had. I'll have one again some time.

[Neonivek]

Gender Roles were about recuperating lost population quickly, in the days before medicine, hygine, and you know... most tools.

Well... That would be Female gender roles.

That wouldn't explain male gender roles (Except maybe the multiple wives thing, or the inferred stud I guess.)

[Solifuge]

Er, they can't exist without each other. It's about division of labor.

Males: Do the risky things that can expend your energy, get you wounded, infected by disease, and/or killed.
Females: Do the less energy-intensive things that expose you to less risk of death, so you can bear kids this year.

Sexual dimorphism in humans reflects this a LITTLE bit (and traits we think of as Male or Female), but we've not been living in societies for long enough for it to go to extremes. And we're not tournament species really, so our dimorphism is way less than in other species.

Female population count is the maximum number of children that can be born to that tribe/settlement/society that year. Keeping women alive, and risking men, makes sense, when you're struggling against mortality all the time. Anyway, that's why genders exist, and why modern medical advances, bathing and hygiene, etc. make them obsolete.

[Neonivek]

Anyway, that's why genders exist, and why modern medical advances, bathing and hygiene, etc. make them obsolete

But they don't. There is still a need for mothers and fathers to name the easiest example that comes to mind.

Modern advances has made strict adherence to gender roles obsolete. Yet we still need those very roles and if you actually look at the job market you will see that we have many gender roles that only exist because of modernity.

As well Feminism itself considers the role of Mother in society to be a protected role.

[Tawa]

There is still a need for mothers and fathers to name the easiest example that comes to mind.

There's a need for caregivers, yes, but who says that one of them has to take a distinct "homemaker" role and one of them has to take an "educator" role? And for that matter, why does the homemaker have to be female, and why does the educator have to be male?

[Neonivek]

There is still a need for mothers and fathers to name the easiest example that comes to mind.

There's a need for caregivers, yes, but who says that one of them has to take a distinct "homemaker" role and one of them has to take an "educator" role? And for that matter, why does the homemaker have to be female, and why does the educator have to be male?

Did I say that? I don't think I did.

[Tawa]

There is still a need for mothers and fathers to name the easiest example that comes to mind.

There's a need for caregivers, yes, but who says that one of them has to take a distinct "homemaker" role and one of them has to take an "educator" role? And for that matter, why does the homemaker have to be female, and why does the educator have to be male?

Did I say that? I don't think I did.

Well, I can't see what else you mean by a need for mothers and fathers. If you're referring to biologically, that's entirely separate from gender roles.