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Author Topic: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway  (Read 143669 times)

spümpkin

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #930 on: November 23, 2016, 10:19:51 pm »

There's a difference between Gender and Gender roles. I kinda skimmed over the previous posts, but just wanted to add my input, that someone's own gender is a part of their mentality, generally :V

It's related to brain stuff, I'm fairly sure, while gender roles are culture stuffs.
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #931 on: November 24, 2016, 01:29:51 am »

Personally, I'd lump "Gender-as-Self-Concept" and "Gender-as-Social-Role" together, and "Gender-as-Preferences/Personality" with Sex/Neurology. Here's my thinking:

Gender is something we start being instructed and inculcated into, from such an early age, that it's hard to separate that training from our innate nature and personality (if that is even a thing that exists). Gender (as Roles) are a sort of thing one labels theirself with to better define their Gender (as Self Concept), especially when talking about theirself to others, or when making decisions about how they'll represent theirself in public.

Sometimes, people fully buy-in and ascribe to a Gender (as Role) they were assigned when young, whether because of their preference, peer pressure, parental instruction, bullying over non-standard gender expression choices, social pressures put on them before their sense of individuality formed, or whatever else. Sometimes, self-concept is based on the rejection of the "appropriate" or standardized Gender, per societal pressures, which goes on to inform their Self-Concept. Sometimes people revise their Genders during their teen years or adulthood, and do an Ala Carte thing to pick the aspects of Socially-Standard Genders that suit who they are. Sometimes, people invent their own self-concept entirely, or elect not to relate to the Gender of their culture. Just by living within society, and wearing it's clothes and interacting with members who do buy in to the culture, it's virtually impossible to avoid Gender-related baggage in it's entirety. People have no choice but to relate to it, in some way... even if that relationship is to invert it, deconstruct it, or reject it entirely.

Insofar as "Gender-as-Personality", that's something I'd lump with Sex, rather than Gender. I've heard of studies of neurology, and the tendencies and differences between the "Male" or "Female" brain; I'm not sure how rigorous they were, or if any study of the brain can really be separated from the effects of Nurture or Culture... but assuming it's a thing. The general conclusion is that some people have Brains that bias them toward certain activities, certain sexualities and attractions, and so on. Sometimes, people have brains that are more neurotypical for a different Sex than their assigned Sex, and that tends to cause clashes with the Gender Role they're likely to be assigned as well. But "Gender-as-Personality" is more a matter of your brain's physiology, rather than one of cultural norms or training.
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Gentlefish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #932 on: November 24, 2016, 03:02:06 pm »

I can at least say for certainty that the "male/female brain" has been hotly contested and has flip-flopped quite a few times as to whether or not there is a difference (in structure. Hormones, again, play a yuuge part in mental tasks).

I know it's all anecdotal evidence, but I've been privy to (not-so-personal) diaries of people transitioning M-to-F, and their talk about how feelings effect them differently and how they're processed is, actually, pretty amazing.

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #933 on: November 25, 2016, 12:23:23 am »

Quote from: some TERF blog's strawmen - err, no, straw-women
"Those mean transphobic powerful feminists want to restrict my access to rape shelters because they think I’m a man!"
"I just want to pee and those TERF bigots say I have to use the men’s room where I might get attacked!"
"Those bigoted cis lesbians say they don’t want to have sex with me because they don’t like penis. How do they even know that if they haven’t seen my penis? My penis is a girl’s penis."
I am incredibly enraged. Like, my eyes are literally glowing. Get help.

Okay, what the fuck. That first straw-woman is just so fucked up. If a man has been raped, then they should fucking get helped. Is that less common than women getting raped? Of fucking course. Arguing that men shouldn't be helped by rape shelters because that's very uncommon is the same fucking logic that sexists use to support male-only things, because "oh this requires strength and women are generally weaker." Yeah, I know, but shouldn't the strong women be allowed too? Similarly, yeah, men are generally raped less, but we fucking help the ones that are. These are the feminists who the antifeminists use to nutpick against us. SUCH RAEG

Second sentence: Here's a strawman for you, you fucking sociopath. "Oh? Somebody is at danger of being attacked in a restroom? Like I give a shit. I don't like this person, remember? I think that they're a "fake woman."" YEAH FUCK YOU

Third: NOBODY EVEN SAYS THAT WHAT THE FUCK

ALSO SURE, KEEP ENFORCING THOSE GENDER ROLES, YOU ARE A VERY GOOD FEMINIST
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #934 on: November 25, 2016, 01:27:15 am »

*looks at above post*

*makes WTF noises*

I don't understaaand.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #935 on: November 25, 2016, 01:53:23 am »

I can at least say for certainty that the "male/female brain" has been hotly contested and has flip-flopped quite a few times as to whether or not there is a difference (in structure. Hormones, again, play a yuuge part in mental tasks).

I know it's all anecdotal evidence, but I've been privy to (not-so-personal) diaries of people transitioning M-to-F, and their talk about how feelings effect them differently and how they're processed is, actually, pretty amazing.

There have been numerous studies on the subject of "brain sex" and there are a few conclusions that I've seen.

First of all, for the most part, classifying a particular brain as "male" or "female" is very difficult. The ranges overlap somewhat and there are many different individual areas that may or may not be larger/more connected/denser/etc.

However, statistically, there are definitely gaps and differences between "male and female brains". It has also been shown that trans women and cis women are similar in several aspects of their brain (and the same for trans men, but there have been less studies there).

In several of these studies, they've looked at trans people both before and after hormone treatment, so that doesn't affect things (IIRC there wasn't a significant difference between the two groups either). In the studies they also had a wide age range, including both early and late transitioning people, which should minimize effects of any brain changes that may happen due to socializing and such as a woman or man.

Also I'll say that personally, as a result of taking hormones, I don't really feel emotions any more intensely, but it's a lot easier to express them.
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #936 on: November 25, 2016, 07:30:29 am »

Yeah, the experience of living day-to-day before and after HRT have definitely been different, though I don't think I can quantify most of it in a meaningful way. Emotions or personality are nebulous, mutable, and stupidly difficult to measure and compare. It's hard to analyze myself like that, without including changes based on ways of being that I'm just more comfortable with now, etc. Here's a few soft conclusions I've come to, so far:

  • The emotional effects of the hormone cycle are in full force; when my hormone levels drop, I've gotten moody/bitchy, to the extent that I'm still learning how to be graceful about it. There's no physical pain or anything to drive it either, so it seems to be something my brain or body is doing on it's own. Not sure if that's a revelation to cis-gals out there, but I can only imagine the cramps et al. make it way worse. They'd probably do plenty to make anyone miserable on their own.
  • From what it seems, emotions of any sort impact me harder and are processed faster. In large part, I think that's just continued emotional thawing-out, as I kick old dissociating-from-my-feelings habits due to dysphoria and other formative experiences. I experience a lot less depression, and a more comfortable range of moods in general too. Again, there's obvious and non-hormonal reasons for that, including greater self-acceptance and better self-actualization, a huge decrease in dysphoria, the support of friends and family, a better sense of who I am and what I want to do, a better agreement between the kind of person I am and the kind of person I present to the world, etc.
  • Another example that was unexpected but pretty clear-cut; having Androgens in my system seems to have suppressed motion sickness; for example, I could read when riding as a passenger without any nausea. Without Androgens in my system, I got super queasy every time I did that. This applied to experiences with VR as well, which makes me think it's something to do with the Vestibular System, and the general sense of motion and balance. Normally, folks think of that as an inherently "Male" neurology thing, but since I've gained and lost it, that suggests it's been 100% hormone-dependent.

I'm keeping on the lookout for other trends like that, cliches to investigate or bust, etc., since I've had the two neurological perspectives to work off of. That said, a grain of salt, for anyone taking anecdotes like this as absolutes or hard facts; I'm just one person, with a particular personality, set of experiences and biases, etc.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 07:38:18 am by Solifuge »
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #937 on: November 25, 2016, 12:57:19 pm »

*looks at above post*

*makes WTF noises*

I don't understaaand.
TERFs are Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. They claim that No Real Feminist would support trans-women, and instead they call them by their old pronouns, go out of their way to insult them, and make horrible straw-women like "waaa lesbians won't have sex with my female penis."
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TempAcc

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #938 on: November 25, 2016, 01:00:37 pm »

That one line was born out of a single particulary insane trans porn star that had a bad reaction out of the fact a certain lesbian pornstar didn't want to do a video with her because she had a penis. Bit of an old story by now.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #939 on: November 25, 2016, 01:03:42 pm »

That one line was born out of a single particulary insane trans porn star that had a bad reaction out of the fact a certain lesbian pornstar didn't want to do a video with her because she had a penis. Bit of an old story by now.
Well, that's called "nutpicking." It's as bad as strawmanning.

If you use the complaints of a single insane trans-woman to delegitimize the complaints of all trans-women, you might as well be using the complaints of a strawman to do the same.
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
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The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #940 on: November 25, 2016, 01:04:08 pm »

*looks at above post*

*makes WTF noises*

I don't understaaand.
TERFs are Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. They claim that No Real Feminist would support trans-women, and instead they call them by their old pronouns, go out of their way to insult them, and make horrible straw-women like "waaa lesbians won't have sex with my female penis."
No, like, I know what they are, I just don't get what they're even saying.  Or what you're saying.  :v

Except for that last one which is all around crazy.
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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #941 on: November 25, 2016, 01:05:54 pm »

*looks at above post*

*makes WTF noises*

I don't understaaand.
TERFs are Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. They claim that No Real Feminist would support trans-women, and instead they call them by their old pronouns, go out of their way to insult them, and make horrible straw-women like "waaa lesbians won't have sex with my female penis."
No, like, I know what they are, I just don't get what they're even saying.  Or what you're saying.  :v

Except for that last one which is all around crazy.
THEY ARE BEING TRANSPHOBIC HYPOCRITICAL PIECES OF SHIT

I AM ENRAGED
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...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
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The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
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TempAcc

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #942 on: November 25, 2016, 01:06:36 pm »

BE AGRESSIVE INSTEAD
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #943 on: November 25, 2016, 01:07:41 pm »

... Like, is this inverse Poe's law going on here?  I feel like I'm missing context...
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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Philosophical Asparagus
« Reply #944 on: November 25, 2016, 01:09:56 pm »

... Like, is this inverse Poe's law going on here?  I feel like I'm missing context...
What would that even be? Poe's Law says that fundamentalists are indistinguishable from parodies of such.

I read a TERF blog. I needed to RAEG. So I posted here to let out the RAEG.
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
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The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!
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