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[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Wow, you're right. This is much bigger than I thought.

1. For the purposes of self-improvement, could you describe the point at which I was appearing self-righteous? (Either I miscommunicated or I actually was self-righteous, both of which should be fixed for enhanced social interaction.)

2. I kind of disagree with your conclusion, though. More on this once I get back to my comp and have the chance to think about it more. That might be tomorrow, I dunno. Better a well-written and -thought reply tomorrow than a hasty, incorrect one today.

[Truean]

I think it's pretty telling a thread about this topic has already devolved to "suicide."

[Rolepgeek]

Wow, you're right. This is much bigger than I thought.

1. For the purposes of self-improvement, could you describe the point at which I was appearing self-righteous? (Either I miscommunicated or I actually was self-righteous, both of which should be fixed for enhanced social interaction.)

2. I kind of disagree with your conclusion, though. More on this once I get back to my comp and have the chance to think about it more. That might be tomorrow, I dunno. Better a well-written and -thought reply tomorrow than a hasty, incorrect one today.

Basically the bit about being intolerant of intolerance was most of it. It's basically impossible not to be self-righteous in one way or another at some points; I know for a fact I get self-righteous about stuff, I just try not to be...what's the word. I try not to generalize it past myself when I can. :/ Or I try to be dry and technical so it's a discussion of philosophy rather than argument or the like. I dunno. Don't worry about it too much, I guess, just, well. This is where I first learned about tribalism and shit. It specifically talks about tolerating anything but intolerance and that sort of thing. Word of warning though, the comments move along a sin curve on the political spectrum. Lots of armchair philosophers on every side, but overall they're pretty good to look at too on other pages (this is one of the more popular pages so it's gonna be bloated with comments), can give very cool insight on things.

2. Always glad for discussion when I can. You never know what you really believe until you have it genuinely challenged.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I believe you meant a "sine curve." A sin curve sounds interesting

It's interesting how one source says that tolerance is "acceptance without interference," and another "respect and kindness." Is it possible to be respectful and kind while interfering with someone's intolerance? If so, Armokdamn language strikes again - different meanings exist for the same word, but they are similar enough in meaning and use that they are often the source of misunderstandings!

[Rolepgeek]

I tend to think in terms of the abbreviations, sorry.

Tolerance is not respect and kindness. That's acceptance. You can tolerate something without accepting it. In fact, if you have no problems with something, then you aren't being tolerant at all; tolerance is about things you don't like but put up with anyway.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

...wow. Just wow.

I finished the article you linked to, and as a result of that article and your posts (and some internal stuff I'll explain later) I have had a fucking epiphany.

I knew I wasn't perfect, but looking at the article and myself? Everybody is incredibly inherently flawed. I am inherently flawed in a fuckton of ways. And I already knew this, and yet I wasn't thinking about that. My mind is opening, thinking, everything is looking more complex. Reality is just shades of gray!

And I knew this! What the fuck, brain?! I've figured this out dozens of times before, and yet I still couldn't apply it to tolerance and outgroups! I still saw myself and my ingroup as tons more right than teh sexists, how awful they are, those evil people who I don't preach overt hate against, look at how great I am! I was kind of pre-holier-than-thou. And it's completely at odds with the philosophy that I developed! How on earth was I able to hold such inconsistent ideas in the same mind?

This doesn't feel right. It's unintuitive, and every part of me wants to abandon the thoughts and continue with the old way of thinking. I feel incredibly uncomfortable thinking about these things. And that is so incredibly perfect! Who knows what lurks in the recesses of my mind?! I can finally own myself, know myself! No longer will my thought processes go unquestioned. I will figure out what makes me tick, no matter how embarrassingly simple and common it is. (Because there's no way my mind wouldn't be special, right? I'm bound to be so different, so much better than those common unthinking sheeple! See?! I'm finding another dark recess!) This feels great and awful AND I LOVE IT!

And the best part? I've never had such a constructive discussion as this with a conservative.* And I don't even know whether that's because conservatives can't think big, important thoughts! (Again, another recess.) It could be that conversations don't work over the outgroup line. It could even be me! The possibilities are endless and complex! Life is interesting again!

*(Explanation b/c fucking English: I do not think that you are conservative [at least, not heavily]. I have talked with conservatives before. Never has a constructive discussion arisen from those talks.)

Of course, this all came about because of weird words - if I had used a synonym for my use of "tolerate," this derailish discussion wouldn't have happened. But I am so glad it did. I feel like I've awoken - but that in itself should be questioned! Am I now feeling better than the "sleeping people"?! I AM ADDICTED TO FINDING FLAWS IN MYSELF

[misko27]

... Congratulations!(?)

I'm not totally clear on what just happened here, and I don't know what article you are referring to. But it does sound like you've hit upon an important lesson. Many people I respect as wise and knowledgeable (much more than myself) do not make the connection that you have just made. Yay for questioning ourselves, I guess.

I feel like saying something else...

[Starver]

Ok, got to the end of this (so far). Despite seeing it start, it (naturally) ran faster than I could handle, and went through other bits I didn't care to reply to.  (Or shouldn't reply to. e.g. I have to inform one contributor (I forget who) that being "apart of China" is an awkwardly ungrammatical statement that actually says the opposite of the intended "a part of China", but that could have been a typo...)  But please do ignore that administrivia... My real points follow thus:

"What is between your ears" (gender) is one thing. It's hard to compare between people and social pressures (or personal will) might attempt to polarise the results, and possibly for most people it is clear and binary but I'm not sure that it can't be fluid over time, never mind tied down to one-or-the-other per person. - This may follow, but needn't, your genetic make-up. It can be more complicated than thatmand perhaps the uterine environment plays a part, but neurology is weird.

"What is between your legs" (sex) is another thing. For many people it is clear and binary, but there are definitely occasionally known ambiguities. Surgery can be had to do something about perceived wrongness, especially personal mismatch with the above (or forced upon the infant, to make it binary when it was not, by those who think they know best, despite having been subsequently shown to be wrong about that). - This may follow, but needn't, your genetic make-up. It can be more complicated than that and perhaps the uterine environment plays a part, but biology is weird.

"Who is between your legs" (sexuality) is yet another thing. It's not even a spectrum, but more multidimensional than that with at least two separate 'axes of preference' from not-at-all to definitely-do. It's almost certainly fluid and malleable by circumstance (but not such that any attempt should be made to force it to change to match other people's preconceived/indoctrinated expectations) with no necessary matching to either of the above situations, and natural and mutual happiness ought to be the ideal result, but there's no guarantee of that. - This may follow, but needn't, your genetic make-up. It can be more complicated than that and perhaps the uterine environment plays a part, but psychology is weird.

(Repeat for societal expectations - sociology is weird. Probably also repeat for personal expectations - psychiatry is weird. etc, etc.)

[Rolepgeek]

...wow. Just wow.

I finished the article you linked to, and as a result of that article and your posts (and some internal stuff I'll explain later) I have had a fucking epiphany.

I knew I wasn't perfect, but looking at the article and myself? Everybody is incredibly inherently flawed. I am inherently flawed in a fuckton of ways. And I already knew this, and yet I wasn't thinking about that. My mind is opening, thinking, everything is looking more complex. Reality is just shades of gray!

And I knew this! What the fuck, brain?! I've figured this out dozens of times before, and yet I still couldn't apply it to tolerance and outgroups! I still saw myself and my ingroup as tons more right than teh sexists, how awful they are, those evil people who I don't preach overt hate against, look at how great I am! I was kind of pre-holier-than-thou. And it's completely at odds with the philosophy that I developed! How on earth was I able to hold such inconsistent ideas in the same mind?

This doesn't feel right. It's unintuitive, and every part of me wants to abandon the thoughts and continue with the old way of thinking. I feel incredibly uncomfortable thinking about these things. And that is so incredibly perfect! Who knows what lurks in the recesses of my mind?! I can finally own myself, know myself! No longer will my thought processes go unquestioned. I will figure out what makes me tick, no matter how embarrassingly simple and common it is. (Because there's no way my mind wouldn't be special, right? I'm bound to be so different, so much better than those common unthinking sheeple! See?! I'm finding another dark recess!) This feels great and awful AND I LOVE IT!

And the best part? I've never had such a constructive discussion as this with a conservative.* And I don't even know whether that's because conservatives can't think big, important thoughts! (Again, another recess.) It could be that conversations don't work over the outgroup line. It could even be me! The possibilities are endless and complex! Life is interesting again!

*(Explanation b/c fucking English: I do not think that you are conservative [at least, not heavily]. I have talked with conservatives before. Never has a constructive discussion arisen from those talks.)

Of course, this all came about because of weird words - if I had used a synonym for my use of "tolerate," this derailish discussion wouldn't have happened. But I am so glad it did. I feel like I've awoken - but that in itself should be questioned! Am I now feeling better than the "sleeping people"?! I AM ADDICTED TO FINDING FLAWS IN MYSELF

WELCOME TO RATIONALITY

ALMOST EVERYTHING IS FUCKED

ALMOST NO ONE IS EVIL



Now we try to fix it.

(and no, I'm not conservative, I just think it's important to respect everyone. Full stop.)

Though, if you read his stuff and the related stuff, you'll find that 'Rationality addiction' is also a thing where it's all about that feeling of enlightenment, even when false. So tread carefully

Anyway, odds are it's because both of you weren't actually talking to each other, you were talking past each other, if you were talking about political stuff. It's fucking hard to actually hear someone out for their side genuinely. Which sounds absurd, but most people don't go into arguments looking to get the other's sides view because they think their own views are incomplete or wrong. It's often done with the intent to 'show them the truth' instead. Which means you just look for ways they're wrong.

But yeah go have fun

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Haha, the "rationality addiction" is ironic. The high has left me now, btw. I'll make sure to stay logically consistent.

Good point about showing vs discovering truth. (I can't tell whether you think I think you're a conservative or not - just make sure you read the parenthetical explanation.)

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

DDDDOUBLEPOST

Also, I didn't mean for this to be the "Dozebom discovers things about himself, becomes a better person" thread. It just sort of happened.

Here's a thought: if this way of thinking implies that I am not better than other people, then either this way of thinking is not good (which I dismiss), or everybody must be able to think this way. Thus, rationality gives me irrational optimism. Or is the optimism rational because it was rationally derived, though it was for an irrational purpose (that of providing hope)?

Shit. This is not the philosophy thread. I made a philosophy thread. Hmm.

[Rolepgeek]

Dunno why you think hope is irrational.

[TempAcc]

There are times in which things are actualy far simpler than people make it out to be, this has been one of those times for a while now :U

[IronyOwl]

This is where I first learned about tribalism and shit. It specifically talks about tolerating anything but intolerance and that sort of thing.

Insightfulness and all aside, this article is just plain well written and fun to read. Thanks for the link.

EDIT:

Some of it is certainly genetic – estimates of the genetic contribution to political association range from 0.4 to 0.6. Heritability of one’s attitudes toward gay rights range from 0.3 to 0.5, which hilariously is a little more heritable than homosexuality itself.

Holy shit wait what. This and its branches will require more attention and time than I anticipated. Thank you immensely for the link.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Dunno why you think hope is irrational.

Because hope springs eternal, and yet not every situation would seem hopeful to an objective eye. But then of course I guess "nothing is reliable source," so objectivity can't really be done. (Heh, I love stealing sigquotes.) Hope can obscure what logically would seem obvious - but without it, people tend to give up. Which is bad. So I guess it's an acceptible irrationality.

There are times in which things are actualy far simpler than people make it out to be, this has been one of those times for a while now :U

To what does the Prophet refer?