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[Vector]

-snip-

[TheBiggerFish]

Vector wrote a book where can I buy it

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

But intolerance itself should not be tolerated. Why is intolerance an okay thing? If it is, then intolerance of intolerance is okay! I would like to hear more about your philosophy of tolerance, though - you're a cool person with neat ideas, and I could be wrong. Perhaps there is a difference between accepting intolerance and tolerating tolerance? But surely intolerance ought to be diminished if possible, right? And that means that intolerance is not tolerated. Or is that not what the word means?

Also, I messed up the paragraph that looks like an appeal to Sartre. I actually mean the opposite - agreeing with Hobbes. People were saying that choice already exists, and I was saying that an intolerant, negative reaction to those who come out as gay, trans, or similar prevents there from being a "completely true" choice - would you blame someone for not coming out? There is a reason for that action, and that reason comes from society. I am saying that there ought not be that reaction from society, that there is a problem. Which I suppose is somewhat obvious. Three paragraphs to say "this is a problem"? I need to be more concise.

Vector book? Where?!

Edit: "allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference." That's tolerance. Don't you want to interfere with that which wishes to interfere with that which you believe to be okay?

They want to interfere with the gays. Not picking a side means they do that. Neutrality is impossible. We need to stop those who would stop people.

Oh shit, paradox.

[scriver]

Iirc they translated a Russian poet.

[Vector]

-snip-

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I'm not really old enough to be a lifeguard in either sense.

Did you read the definition of tolerance that I was using? Of course I will maintain the humanity of those who I don't tolerate! That is what makes the "stricter rule." I don't parade around screaming "GOD HATES FAGHATERS." I don't beat up, discriminate against, or lynch intolerant people. But I will not for one second accept intolerance.

I agree that I am kind of standing on the sides here, pointing at the injustice and saying "look, bad stuff!" But I wouldn't have thought that necessary if people hadn't tried to justify the injustice with "not everybody wants a choice" and "there's a reason most societies aren't just - so injustice must be okay!"

[Vector]

-snip-

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Not accepting isn't the same as constantly trying to stop individual people. 

I meant "accept" as in "think that it is okay" or "be fine with." I can still talk to bigoted people, I can still treat them as fellow humans, but the bigotness itself is bad, and I will try to stop it. At my age, I can't really do anything about it, but that doesn't mean that I am fine with the bigotness. I accept that it is something that I cannot fix. That does not mean that I accept it as something that is okay.

Oh Armok this sounds so much like "love the sinner hate the sin" ugh. Which is bad because people who say that frequently engage in wholesale hatefests.

[Arx]

Oh Armok this sounds so much like "love the sinner hate the sin" ugh.

BREAKING: Sometimes people you disagree with have views that align with your own on other things.

[Truean]

Please don't quote:

Illusion of choice: the tyrant's best friend. Stating his victims chose, the tyrant soothes his guilty conscience. A gun to the head is no choice, except to the gunman. He alone may pull the trigger, yet we blame the victim, and say they can chose death. To this I reply, "You first." The illusion doesn't stop there, the extorted price need not be as expensive as death. Severe bodily harm, unwanted sex, taking property, etc, is also extortion. Each example is unfairly taking someone's right for a ransom. Be it murder, battery, rape, or robbery, none are right; none are chosen.

We just gloss over the offender who created and could easily cease the situation and blame the victim. It's easier. Immorality often is.

I'm trans; it shouldn't matter. It does. I'm in danger of having all my rights destroyed, and have had many already destroyed. Honesty may lead to death, beatings, etc. What's the worst to take, is the absolute lie, "Be yourself; be an individual." That is, unless anyone doesn't like you, which is inevitable. Being excluded from our interdependent society is intolerable, because we can't all be self sustaining hunters in the wilderness. Practically, it's a slow death sentence from poverty, and isolation.

As for intolerance, push it and it pushes back hard. Ideally, the idea of my wearing a dress and receiving medical treatment, shouldn't exile me from society. This is the real, not the ideal. I am denied both and granted misery. All the while, groups of individuals have asserted ownership over public spaces and excluded me from them. Transgender access to anything, driver's licenses, housing, jobs, medical care, even bathrooms is seen as us infringing upon others. Our rights are ignored. There's no civilized discussion, and attempts at that have gone badly. God forbid you don't fit in....

I'm actually quite scared to even speak or type of it. It's gotten a little better with some people, but we're still in a world where I could say and do all the right things at exactly the right time, for all the right reasons, for all the right results, and it means nothing and we all know why. I'm foolish enough to post about this topic again, even after such a long time, even in a thread dedicated to it.

At some point I was emotionally destroyed, and am rebuilding myself, painfully slowly. I've learned to speak little. Even that isn't safety.

I find it tragic that what I am is disliked so much by some people (who I've never hurt) that they think I'm what's destroying the country or whatever. A decent enough place in society would be nice. Failing that, meh. I'm just tired.

Please don't quote:

[Rolepgeek]

Intolerance isn't great.

But it's also literally unavoidable, because of the way our brains are wired. We need an enemy. If you're progressive, you find it in all those despicable Racists and Sexists and other Evil People^tm. If you're more 'traditional', you might find it in foreigners or Muslims or colored people or the gays, but you probably find it in all those traitorous Hippies and Communists and damn dirty Tax-n-Spenders who want to Ruin Our Country^tm!

So saying 'you need to accept me and love me for who I am anyway' isn't going to happen. Tolerance means allowing to exist. It doesn't mean liking it. Accomodating deviation, giving leeway for people who want to do that, that's a good thing, and very possible. Accepting deviation? Well, if it was accepted, it wouldn't be deviation.

Furthermore, the vast majority of people whom I'm guessing you would consider bigoted are not actively intolerant, Dozebom. But you can't really try to stop it via 'YOU'RE BAD FOR NOT LIKING THESE PEOPLE', which, if that's not what you're talking about, good, but that's not what I'm getting from you. I feel like it's a common failure mode (in the sense that I consider it a failure to maintain one's values) for progressives, to become/feel justified in holier-than-thou righteous indignation and outrage addiction. Hell, just look at what people can be considered racist for now. Sometimes I think it's justified, but other times...'not having the forethought to realize what it might be construed as' just doesn't have the maliciousness of racism. And putting 'Fuck the gays' and 'Those gays sure are good at parades, aren't they?' on the same level seems fundamentally flawed, to me.

And I see that phrase (Love the sinner hate the sin) used far more by the people who don't hate than the ones who do. As in, most if not all of my friends and the people I've known who disapprove of things like homosexuality but don't actual disapprove of the people themselves. Though that might be selection bias on my part.

[Truean]

Please do not quote:

People are scared, and don't have what they need / expect. They aren't fighting over what to do / how to solve things. They're fighting over who to blame.

As long as "who to blame" isn't the people in power, it's all good. So sayth the people in power....

Whatever you do, don't try to solve anything, because then you'll be blamed, or called controlling, or something. It just won't end well. We aren't talking about what causes people not getting what they need or expect. We're not talking about how to fix it, especially not practically. We're talking about laying it all on one group or another and we're not talking about solutions. That's why things keep getting worse.

Anyone who thinks me wearing a dress is destroying the country is wrong and not seeing the advantage of that if it were true. In that case, I'd be a wrecking ball you'd want to send to enemy nations. Basically if I'm a lightening rod for God's Wrath, then get me to infiltrate some hostile foreign power or something and attract all that divine ire their way. Except of course that's not how it works and deep down people know this.

Please do not quote:

[hops]

To be honest I think you people just live in a shitty country for shitty people and should move to somewhere civilized like Germany or Norway.

[TempAcc]

An aditional problem of the characteristic holier than thou approach of ~progressives~ and how similar it tends to get to the insane shallow and often circular logic of more ~traditional~ groups is that, at their respective worst examples, it often to boils down to defining someone as their enemy though certain preconceived characteristics. And that enemy is more often than not defined more by looks and tastes (or what they think is one person's looks and tastes) rather than actions.

This is why every trans person ever is lumped togheter with bug chasers and pedophiles in the minds of one old westboro baptist flat earth enthusiast protester carrying a "god hates fags" sign, and why your average black lives matters protester thinks every person with a light skin colour is out to destroy them or has some sort of inherent hate for anything not white.

Even one's actions aren't important if they don't actualy affect (or create risks to) anyone else. I know a swedish furry bdsm blood fetishist dweeb, but he keeps his stuff to himself and within the circle of people he does it with, so why should I care (I do make jokes about it here and there, but thats because I'm a jerk :U)? Aditionaly, I know my grandma really REALLY disapproves of the fact I like my hair long and that I have stolen more than one boy's manhood in my teenage days, but I still treat her like she's my grandma and talk to her and etc.

[Rolepgeek]

I disagree vehemently, Cinder.

I'm a patriot in (what I consider, obviously) the finest sense of the word. Patriotism is not about how much you love your country as it is now, it's about how much you're willing to give up to make it better.

But yes, a lot of society's problems are caused by coordination problems and a desire to blame rather than solve. Two-party systems will do that; it's real tempting to blame the other guys to try and get people to vote for you instead.

On an individual level, people are scared of what they don't understand. Though there's always hope, at least. Deep canvassing is much more successful than rebuke or scorn for changing people's thought patterns/minds about transgender subjects. Obviously still doesn't work every time, but combine it with a general cultural trend...I'm sorry that you have to deal with that stuff Truean. There's no excuse for people doing that to you. I do think that it's getting better, though.

@TempAcc: I don't mean to be rude, but how many Black Lives Matter protesters have you met? Do you mean primarily the people who participate in rallies or anyone who supports the movement? Because I see a lot online about BLM being half a black-supremacy movement and half a white-people-suck 'support group', but I don't know how accurate that actually is.

Also why did you steal people's testicles But in general I agree with your first post. And to some degree your third. *shrug*