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[spümpkin]

Heh.

Bullsplint...

It's really funny, reading all the splint/shit swappings. It just seems so silly to replace that word in an already offensive (to most) statement.

Anyway, I don't want to be here for the politics, just kinda wanted to say that I have another appointment with youth workers next friday

And I am also going to buy some clothes when I go out with a friend this weekend.

I will get some booty pants to show off my thighs

[Jimmy]

God help me when my daughter starts wearing booty pants. If she takes after her mother, she'll be a handful. She's already got most of her male friends wrapped around her little finger, and she's still in primary school!

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

But equality cannot be a bad thing, right? (Well, fair equality. Ever seen the cartoon of the short, medium, tall guys looking over the fence?)

Armok damn it, no, I shouldn't hijack my own thread to discuss communism. (Communism is grea - wrestle shove stop discussing that)

[alexandertnt]

Public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of equality of the sexes. Women's legal rights were not granted in a vacuum, they were granted because the public was in favour, much like homosexuality laws more recently. Gender roles are in the same category. Most people understand that they are merely generalisations, and individuals will be individuals.

I don't see any reason to believe BillyTheKid's opinions are widespread. Present, certainly, especially among older generations who tend to be more conservative. I also believe that people holding such beliefs do not pose a significant barrier to women who wish to achieve their goals.

Ending discrimination is a fool's errand. There will always be people with bigoted views. There will always be people who are rude or unpleasant, because this is human nature. The only way to deal with this is to look past them and move on.

Yeah, but pretty much no one, for example, is a racist if you ask them. Racism is bad, I am not bad, therefore I am not racist is the kind of logic everyone uses. That doesn't stop people from being racist of course, they just either do it unintentionally (which is still harmful), or they just call themselves something else ("I'm not a racist, I'm a race-realist").

Usually, when people try to deal with discrimination, they deal with either singular problems, or perceived systematic problems. "Ending discrimination full stop" is virtually impossible and no one is really trying (though some groups might use the language because it's received positively by people, as you have pointed out above). It's not unreasonable to be suspicious or doubtful of someone/some entity trying to so vaguely "end discrimination".

Billy's view IMO is more common than you think, at least in the context of trans/genderfluid people. One... "advantage" of being a boring white cis male is that you get to hear people shit-talking these people behind their backs. The whole idea that male and female roles are fixed and inflexible seems pretty common, at least in my experience.

The communist countries that do/did exist were not exactly minority havens. Some of these kind of groups may use messages of equality because they are popular, not because they actually care (same with companies, politicians, etc), similar to pinkwashing.

[saigo]

That doesn't stop people from being racist of course, they just either do it unintentionally (which is still harmful)

I don't know if we should concern ourselves with unintentional racism. It makes me think of Thought Police.

Billy's view IMO is more common than you think, at least in the context of trans/genderfluid people. One... "advantage" of being a boring white cis male is that you get to hear people shit-talking these people behind their backs. The whole idea that male and female roles are fixed and inflexible seems pretty common, at least in my experience.

Trans issues are less widely accepted than other minority issues, but it has come a long way in just a few years. I think we'll see a lot of improvements as time goes on.

- Oh, I'm a Bay Watcher now. Congratulations to me.

[alexandertnt]

That doesn't stop people from being racist of course, they just either do it unintentionally (which is still harmful)

I don't know if we should concern ourselves with unintentional racism. It makes me think of Thought Police.

Well, you did say we should act on bigoted opinions. Just because someone didn't say they think blacks are intellectually inferior doesn't stop them from perceiving black people as intellectually inferior ("black people aren't stupid, its just that every black person I have met is stupid").

No one is policing thoughts, it is the effect of the actions based on these perceptions, that is of concern to people. Prejudice is a complicated thing, certainly more complicated than "I'm not hiring you because your gay".

Trans issues are less widely accepted than other minority issues, but it has come a long way in just a few years. I think we'll see a lot of improvements as time goes on.

I do agree, though its important to remember that this only happens because people push for these improvements.

[chaoticag]

Well, to be honest people are held accountable for for doing things unintentionally as is. An extreme example is manslaughter, but more commonly, courts do not accept ignorance of the law as a valid defense, yet most people do not consider that to be thought policing.

Now, we are talking about social norms here, so you can argue that legal cases and courthouses are a tangent, but I do bring it up to make a point. My point is that in cases where harm is done, whether that is intentional or not, the actor is responsible for his actions and is not exempt from criticism. Demonstrating hate or discrimination unintentionally does not provide a compelling reason to make an exemption, but at best shows that lesser criticism is warranted.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Improvements have been made - but only because people kept working at it. If we stop, not much'll happen.

Edit: new pages always mess me up

[hops]

50 ppp master race, noobs.

[Phmcw]

Racism is bad, I am not bad, therefore I am not racist is the kind of logic everyone uses.

The fact that "racism" is bad is socially accepted. What it is and why it's bad isn't.
Which also mean that the acceptance is pretty meaningless.

Well,raising someone gender neutral shouldn't be a problem I think? Idea being not that you'll end up with children with no idea of what gender is, but that your kid would be more at ease without having to conform to society's perception of gender.

Peoples crave an identity, if you remove gender it will be something else. I believe that gender neutral isn't the right way to go, and that being more permissive with gender definition will be much more beneficial.

But you have a lot of leeway on how you define gender-roles, roles in society and values in general.
Look what "being a man" was before. Read Duma for instance. Aristocrats wore heels, pretty jewels-adorned coats, make-up, and held culture and refinement in high esteem. They spoke of how their pants hi-lighted the gable of their legs, and made sure they had delicates hands.
They were also ruthless killers that would stab you for looking at them the wrong way.

[Edmus]

As someone with a not inconsiderable amount of ingrained racism, being self aware of it is rather difficult, and acknowledging your first impressions of certain kinds of people are wrong is frustrating. It's also something no one ever wants to admit.

Perhaps in an increasingly individualist society the definitions of gender are becoming increasingly divergent?
I have a couple sorts of male defined for myself.

[alexandertnt]

Racism is bad, I am not bad, therefore I am not racist is the kind of logic everyone uses.

The fact that "racism" is bad is socially accepted. What it is and why it's bad isn't.
Which also mean that the acceptance is pretty meaningless.

Yep. Many people know its bad, but they don't know much more than that beyond "the n word is racist" or similarly blunt racism.

[TempAcc]

Bleh, it is indeed true that people only knows that racism is bad, but do not actualy understand why its bad and what it actualy is, and thus they think they can fight it like it was some sort of cartoon villain. Ironically, many of those attempts devolve into racism as well, because people have a need for villains and targets to demozine and destroy and make themselves feel better, even though they're actively hurting people.

Again, like Phmcw also stated, people have this dire need for identity. While it may be hard for some people to realize, extremist groups of all sides (even those that claim to be on opposing ends of a spectrum) are often very, very similar in practice, but thats not the point of the thread, anyway. More on topic, people often crave an identity that can make them into something that is a part of something bigger than themselves, and I feel that, nowadays, gender is becoming more popular as an identity option to latch onto, and not just in regards to gender dysphoria and sexuality, either. Feminism has ceased to be only a civil rights movement to become an identity option, which can be good if its used well, since it creates unity in favor of a cause, but really bad when its badly used, since the bad actions of a loud minority do end up dragging the whole group down, and may actualy hijack the entire cause into a direction it was never going for, since our society still often sees groups as homogenous and stereotypical entities (because there's always someone to reinforce the stereotype).

This need for identity, by itself, is not a problem. The problem is when people start to ascribe good and evil to identities, rather than actions. Thus a certain identity group gets a free pass to do pretty much anything because a major chunk of society likes to see them as "the good guys", while identity groups that said group opposes and/or are in start contrast with are relegated to the status of "bad guys", which become the acceptable targets, and eventualy attacking the "bad guys" becomes a free meal ticket to being socially seen as a better person then you actualy are. This creates social division, because not all of society sees "the good guys" in such a nice light, which is a very convenient scenario for politicians and opinion formers to take advantage of.

Moral of the story is: people need to stop judging people for what they think they are, and start judging them for their actions.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

50 ppp master race, noobs.

I _am_ on 50 ppp. I read to the end of page 6 and, thinking that was the last post, responded to it.

[chaoticag]

Peoples crave an identity, if you remove gender it will be something else. I believe that gender neutral isn't the right way to go, and that being more permissive with gender definition will be much more beneficial.

I said gender neutral, not gender exclusionary. It's about letting your kid figure it out rather than enforcing norms on them. Want to get them clothes? Pick the ones with their favorite cartoon characters and listen to what they want to wear. Toys? See what catches their fancy at a toy store, whether it's a barbie or an action figure. Don't take things or deny them stuff they want because it's too, I dunno "gendered" or the wrong "gender". Let them be who they want without the parents placing expectations from them, at least for their leisure. Kids spend a lot of time learning, so it's a matter of teaching them how to make themselves happy rather than how to make others happy at their expense.