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[Dozebôm Lolumzalės]

You'd think that agender means genderless. a- = without. But meh.

Thanks for the word. It isn't perfect, but it's better than any I've seen.

[TheBiggerFish]

You'd think that agender means genderless. a- = without. But meh.

Thanks for the word. It isn't perfect, but it's better than any I've seen.

I do my best.

[spümpkin]

Now, I can't talk from the P.O.V. of someone who's transitioned, as I haven't yet, but as far as I've been learning about the process (starting hormone blockers soon ((only $5 every 10-12 months. Cheap af))), it seems to me like it'd work to counter act the great big problem that is my gender dysphoria. I think that statistic that people pull our when they say "transgender people have the same rate of suicide post-op", is because when a lot of people transition, they're going throu gh other things. Gender dysphoria has been linked to depression, anxiety, etc. And, I think what the transgender community needs to know, is that no, it won't magically make all your problems go away, getting hormone therapy or a sex change. But it can help, with that big problem, so you can work on the other things more often.

I am a bit further into the transition (Male to Female), genderdysphoria is one of the causes for depressions and yes it gets better with hormones. Transdermal patches (similiar to Nicotine-patches) work better then gels and creams in my experience.
 
The other side is society where you have a few distinct problems. The active bullying - say the BS about toilet usage - sure is one but there are some sometimes very subtle things.
For example "expected behaviour", even if its subconciously expected, can be very big stressor - atleast for me. Having to behave in a certain "manly" or "womanly" way so you get taken seriously is always a fight. Discussing with someone nets different responses whatever i am seen as man or woman. My behaviour, say in dealing with Agencies and Departments, gets interpreted as bitchy and hysteric when i a appear as woman but the very same behavior was fine when i was there as male a few months prior.
Looking at womans clothing at first was very problematic since there is always the chance to be called out on it by someone less supportive ("That perv is looking at panties yuk!") and this can become a fear that persist to later states.

Luckely i didnt had to experience this at all but the the reaction to the coming out can be very harmfull. My family and friends accepted me as i am but i also know cases where families disowned their children up to death-threat and orphanage.
On the other hand you sometimes have far to eager Family/friends that just relabel you, telling you what a "proper" Man/Woman does, intruding your personal space with say making BS name-suggestions (no i dont want the Female version of my firstname because i hate that firstname!) or generally assuming that you dont know the first thing about being your gender (like knowing your sizes for clothing)!.
 
Similarly the work environment could be very toxic. Starting with school it can be very hard, by outing yourself you offer another oppining for bullies to strike. The outing also squarely places you between the genders (since you are transitioning) so finding friends on either side can become quiet a task.
Later being in a job dominated by one gender or another can lead to problems. You are sometimes seen as intruding into the domain of a gender. Conversely sometimes you are seen as questioning the sexuality of your coworkers by your mere existence as if transsexuality would be contagious.

Phonecalls get annoying for MTF since we cant change our voices that easily leading to being permanently labelled "Sir" or "Mister". Speaking to someone in person will often out you if you couldnt train/operativly change your voice yet. For FTM its a little less of a problem since the testosterone helps with the voice a great deal.

And the most annoying thing for me was the legal aspects of being transgender. Here in Germany i had to PROOF that i feel wrong in my birth-gender for atleast 3 years. Then i had to do atleast 6 moths of Therapist assisted life in my Gender.
Only after that i could apply for a legal change of sex which further requires two reports by 2 separate but specialized Psychiatrists and then a f*ing court-hearing which also can cost up to 5000 Euro.
All in all it can take 6 months to a year and tons of money to get your legal gender and name changed.
Even after that my Health-insurance expected me to jump further hoops to grant me the right to get Hormone-therapy and subsequently a Genderreasignment Operation. The first badge of Meds i had to pay by myself which was around 160 bucks.

Genderdysphoria, depression and anxieties related to it could be easily reduced or treated if society and the Legal apparatus would pull the sticks out of their arses.

Dang. That must be tough.

While my friends, and even most of my teachers have been cool with it (my maths teacher is actually really passionate about helping me, which is neat), my parents... notsomuch.

They are extremely in denial, and while they do want me to be happy (they're letting me do hormone blockers), but they are reluctant to let me start hrt.

I'm probably just gonna do what I normally do, behaviour wise? Because, honestly, I follow no specific gender rules when acting in public :v I'm just a huge nerd. And yeah, for clothes, I have quite a few friends who are willing to let me borrow some of their clothes if I need to, and go out and buy them with me. Heck, I went crossdressing, and nobody said a thing in the girl's bathroom, so I'm obviously somewhat believable . Albeit, I'm pretty androgynous looking anyway.

I have a gender neutral name, so I'm just using that.

And so far, none of my friends have ever tried to tell me what to do or anything. If anything, I tell myself that I'm 'not being trans right', and they are the ones who tell me it's fine. But my family would probably do that once sex change, I'd imagine.

I have goodo friends anyway, so that's thankfully not a huge problem. But yeah, bullies are gonna bully me anyway? People insult me and stuff already, so it's just giving them another reason.

Considering I'm planning on getting a career in either journalism, photojournalism or ((gonna do this at some point)) independent game design, I'd like to think the gender stigma wouldn't be a huge thing.

I get the voice thing, but apparently I sound feminine enough that I could talk to the bus driver while crossdressing and he didn't really seem confused. Likewise, in a bowling alley, trying to get people out of the way.

And I don't know about New Zealand, but so far there hasn'tbeen any legalities. I have to pay for hrt, but if the therapist deems it extremely harmful to not do it, the therapist can do it without parental consent. There's also the thing that, if hrt develops no breasts at all (which has happened once), you get free breast surgery. Hooray, for semi-decent governmental LGBT youth services

[Mel_Vixen]

If you start the HRT early its quite easy to develop very normalish compared to born girls. The Testoblockers will keep your body androgynous for now and the hormones later kickstart your development including wider hips if you are lucky. You shouldnt expect anything above a B-cup though yet again an early strt gives you far better chances.

Here we get free breast and gender-re-assignemt and HRT if deemed necessary by the therapist and the paperworks are done. The later wasnt the case with me so i had to pay my first batch of hormones.

[Reelya]

Yeah BillyTheKid's argument is a huge swiss cheese mess.

If a female to male transgender is only "male" when they can father children, then by what basis is a post-op male to female transgender still "male"? They cannot be considered male according to Billy's own definition, because they cannot father children. The same with female to male transition. They can't be considered female anymore if they cannot give birth, right?

There's also the problem of infertile cisgender people. We don't normally hold up that as a gender-classification problem, so we've basically created an additional hurdle here that isn't even used as a normal part of the definition of which gender an individual person is.

So that leads to a huge mess in defining gender. "Male" means "born male, with or without working sperm", or "MtF, despite lack of working sperm", or "FtM, but only if they have working sperm". Which as anyone can see is a complete mess as a system.

[Mel_Vixen]

Lets not foget XXY people or people where the Y chromosome or the testosteron receptors are turned off (and variations i forgot). They are either on a spectrum between male and female "norm" or just outwardly appear female while being male on the phisical plane of genetics.

[spümpkin]

If you start the HRT early its quite easy to develop very normalish compared to born girls. The Testoblockers will keep your body androgynous for now and the hormones later kickstart your development including wider hips if you are lucky. You shouldnt expect anything above a B-cup though yet again an early strt gives you far better chances.

Here we get free breast and gender-re-assignemt and HRT if deemed necessary by the therapist and the paperworks are done. The later wasnt the case with me so i had to pay my first batch of hormones.

Ah, I meant as in, I still have to pay for it if the therapist thinks its harmful, but parents arent involved. Gender reassignment surgery also isnt an option in new zealand, so i'm gonna have to go overseas for that. There's not too much paperwork though, fortunately.

I'm starting fairly early, but I'm a fair bit through puberty, so my voice is a bit low and I have a kindof masculine bone structure.

[BillyTheKid]

I have my clear definition of a man and woman, and I was hoping you would distinguish between the sex-part, and the persona-part. Sure, a woman can have manly traits, but they don't become less manly or gender-neutral because of that. As much as feminists want to make you believe, men and women are different, vastly different. Our nature and history are the major shapers of these differences. Men are more proactive, dominant, women are more supportive, caring. Just like a woman has no business competing with a man in strength, a man has no business competing with a woman in grace. Thus, certain traits simply belong to a gender.

You can tear your eyeballs out all you want, the differences don't vanish because you said so. They are deeply engrained in our nature, and trying to tamper with them has lead to this disaster of a culture that we have right now: broken marriages left and right, and half of those that didn't break up yet are a disaster ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-years-of-marriage-and-divorce-in-the-united-states-in-one-chart/) All because feminism made us break down "useless" gender roles and provided absolutely no substitute whatsoever. Now we got women competeting with men in the job market, no one to look for after the kids, taking care of the house, a completely eradicated male authority, and barely enough money to get by. And you want to tell me "haHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, men and women are just social constructs you little piece of splinter!!! And gender roles only hurt people!!!!!!!!"? Bullsplint! If we don't restore GENDER ROLES (and above all, FEMININITY !!!!!!!!), we will just spiral down this miserable path of unhappyness and fighting amongst ourselves, until it all boils down to a civil war.

[Mel_Vixen]

Ah, I meant as in, I still have to pay for it if the therapist thinks its harmful, but parents arent involved. Gender reassignment surgery also isnt an option in new zealand, so i'm gonna have to go overseas for that. There's not too much paperwork though, fortunately.

I'm starting fairly early, but I'm a fair bit through puberty, so my voice is a bit low and I have a kindof masculine bone structure.

Its all in flux and a good therapist will listen to your wishes and give you hormones sooner then later. Having a little lower voice works fine with a bit of logopedic training. Regarding bonestructure: big girls are sexy too and the hips can still grow in.
Even with the face its less an issue if you arent extremely male because the tissue above the bones will give you a nice female face eventualy.

What you will need (i consider this general advice to young MTF transgender) is new pants because even without growth of your hips you will develop some more butt. And if you go with silicon-breasts "falsies" take A-cups cause you can use the bras later when the real things grow out. .

Do you get lasering of beards paid as well?

[Rolan7]

@BillyTheKid
Those differences between the sexes are statistical at best.  I've met lots of biological women stronger than me, and many who were less caring.  Lots of women are scary-proactive and dominant.  Those are only tendencies, especially the non-physical differences.

As for gender... Personally I don't care whether people consider me a man or woman.  I just want to be accepted as passive, strong-built, long-haired and smooth-skinned, lacking fashion sense, and nurturing.  People have always given me shit for half of that because I'm a man, and I dislike that (yet have largely internalized it).

People ideally should just be who they are.  Fine with me if most XY people grow up somewhat macho and don't wanna do each other.  That's their business, I'm mine.

[Mel_Vixen]

I have my clear definition of a man and woman

[sarcasm]And damnit they can vote now too![/sarcasm]

Naturally there are some difference due to the way our biology acts but our bilogy doesnt decide everything. Much less things then mariage. Human evolution has geared us towards polyarmouros relationships, eating primarely vegies and walking long distances every day.

Nothing of that applies today for good or worse. And largely religious motivated genderroles dont apply either. I dont care what some idiot said 6k to 7k years ago. Heck even formal mariage wasnt invented by christians but was a legal contract to regulate inheritance at first.

The thing is though you can adhere to your ideas of Gender on your own. That is freedom. Telling other people that they have to adhere to your ideas of Gender - that is oppression.
We dont fight for special rights or some such, eventualy it all comes down that we fight to be treated equaly in all regards before the law and in society. It doesnt mean that girls get lower standarts and such but a opportunity to compete at the same standart as everyone else.

I do believe in Feminism when it fights for equality, i believe in mans rights if its for equality. I believe in anyones rights as long they are grounded in equality and fairness.
What i refuse to believe is that this powerfull notion, that everyone on this beautiful planet is equal in rights and value, can be hindered by people that claim the priviledge to dicate what is "normal", "Acceptable" based on race, sex, gender, age, place of birth and so on.

[chaoticag]

So in order to show that men and women have inherent differences, we're getting a link to a chart showing the marriage and divorce rates in the US. Then we're told that this is happening because such roles have broken down? Uh, yeah, no, you're going to need clearer data than that. And something less arbitrary. It's worth keeping in mind that one of the big changes between then and now is that in the US, men are able to divorce more easily and women are able to as well. Didn't use to be quite the case.

Anyway, for something more direct, I guess I can go ahead and pull this out[url].
Some choice quotes

The dissatisfaction of these women was further evidenced in their ratings of the quality of their relationships. Feminine women with partners whom they perceived to be masculine men were significantly less likely than women in the total sample to rate either their love relationships or their sex lives as satisfactory. These women were also the most likely to report feeling "underloved"—that is, to say that they loved their male partners more than they were loved in retun. Only the women's suffering in these relationships is documented, however, since ratings of the male partners' happiness and satisfaction were not obtained.

In contrast to the per\'asive dissatisfaction expressed by the women in the masculine man/feminine woman dyads, the women in dyads in which one or both partners were rated as androgynous tended to be quite satisfied with the quality of their lives and their intimate relationships. In particular, androgynous women paired with androgynous men reported considerable success in communicating and solving problems with their partners. In addition, they reported high levels of (1) satisfaction with their lives as a whole, (2) responsibility for their outcomes, (3) control over important life events, and (4) optimism for the future. Of more specific relevance for the theme of this article, their ratings of satisfaction with their sex lives and intimate relationships were also quite high.

It's worth going over the whole thing since it does examine multiple papers, so this is more of a meta study than a singular research data point.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalės]

Science fuck yeah.

Also, Billy? Do you have a problem with men who have feminine traits, and the opposite of masculine traits? Because either you don't, and you are being inconsistent and weird talk-stuff, or feces just got personal.

(Note to self: personal feces does not excuse flamewars. Make sure to lock thread if flames occur. Do NOT continue fighting if fights develop.

That means you, Doz. I'm looking at you. No fighting. It's your thread, you have to be responsible. Don't come crying to me when you get banned.

Maybe I haven't been to Iceland because I'm too busy dealing with YOUR crummy code.)

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

Bullsplint!

If you intend to use foul language, please do so instead of bowdlerizing yourself. I don't think anybody would be offended in this instance, and it isn't against this forum's policy.

Just in case you think I'm just trying to make you feel bad, you should know I am not. I mean this seriously.

[spümpkin]

Ah, I meant as in, I still have to pay for it if the therapist thinks its harmful, but parents arent involved. Gender reassignment surgery also isnt an option in new zealand, so i'm gonna have to go overseas for that. There's not too much paperwork though, fortunately.

I'm starting fairly early, but I'm a fair bit through puberty, so my voice is a bit low and I have a kindof masculine bone structure.

Its all in flux and a good therapist will listen to your wishes and give you hormones sooner then later. Having a little lower voice works fine with a bit of logopedic training. Regarding bonestructure: big girls are sexy too and the hips can still grow in.
Even with the face its less an issue if you arent extremely male because the tissue above the bones will give you a nice female face eventualy.

What you will need (i consider this general advice to young MTF transgender) is new pants because even without growth of your hips you will develop some more butt. And if you go with silicon-breasts "falsies" take A-cups cause you can use the bras later when the real things grow out. .

Do you get lasering of beards paid as well?

I don't think I get free laser hair removal, no.
And yeah, big gurls can be good, and I'm happy with being one.
And I have a fair bit off butt, due to doing quite a bit of squat workouts on a semi-regular basis.
And no, I'm not extremely male, luckily enough.

I do have some pants, and I am planning on getting more at some point, and a friend of mine gave me some small bras, which was nice of her. I dunno if  I'll go with silicon, depends on cost.