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[mainiac]

Im game. I say p-value of 0.45 what are we betting?

An inch of e-peen

[spümpkin]

You define gender as gender identity. Nice tautology, but doesn't actually answer my question.

What is gender? My question was "what is the absence of gender", which is functionally identical.

It depends. There's gender in society, and personal gender. Gender roles and Gender identity.

I cannot be bothered to go researching right now, but from my memory I can say that there is a certain part of the brain which formulates your identity, including gender identity. I'd probably say that's more gender than anything. I've also read that transwomen have more feminine brain structure, and vice versa. So, I'd presume agender just falls somewhere smack-bang in the middle.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

If transgender would mean that your identity matches up only with the sex that you were not born with, and cisgender... that you were born with, then wouldn't agender mean that your identity wouldn't "match" at all? That one would not have dysphoria in either sex?

[Harry Baldman]

If transgender would mean that your identity matches up only with the sex that you were not born with, and cisgender... that you were born with, then wouldn't agender mean that your identity wouldn't "match" at all? That one would not have dysphoria in either sex?

I think it might be more that you experience dissatisfaction being perceived as either (I hesitate to say dysphoria because dysphoria is a pretty heavy thing to throw around). If your sex is male and you don't really feel too bad about that, your gender is probably also male. There's no real way to test whether you'd be dissatisfied about transitioning except to try it, and since transitioning is also kind of a serious thing I'd assume most people wouldn't want to try it if they aren't deeply dissatisfied with it or can at least hopefully reconcile their differences with the gender they've been assigned.

If you want to transition into agender, I guess you become very committed to being androgynous? Choose a unisex name? Choose a slightly feminine-looking wardrobe? Wear a reasonable amount of makeup? I think the secret to success there is to not tell anyone you're agender, because that's only going to fly without question with a very specific crowd, and accept that you'll be stereotyped as metrosexual instead.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Hmm. I know that I can't easily test "reaction to being a girl," but since I don't think I would mind, and most boys I've questioned said they /would/ mind, that seems to imply something that's not purely cis.

What you're describing sounds like something in between female and male. Is there something that's not /on/ the spectrum at all?

Of course, if it turns out that my studies were incorrect (due to either small sample sizes or an obscuring social effect), then I will reconsider my results.

Is there a gender for "doesn't care, none of this matters to me at all," or would that just be a variant of cis? I just want a way to say "literally no shits given about gender".

Of course, none of this would even be in question if I understood exactly what falls under "gender".

[Reelya]

There's no fundamental reason something completely alien to the "spectrum" could not exist in a human. It's just much more unlikely than being a mix of traits that already evolved.

My reasoning for that is because evolution created two sexes, and the traits that are linked to each one are completely arbitrary products of evolution. Because the wiring for all those traits already exists, then when things don't go to "plan", the most likely outcome is a mix of the pre-programmed traits for each gender.

But since the system is a completely artificial construct of evolution, there's no scientific reason someone couldn't be a trans-cat or something. You could theoretically end up with brain wiring of a cat in part of your head that does identity. Cat neurons aren't any different from human ones, and human neurons have even been made to work properly in other species. It's just extremely unlikely to happen because the brain wiring would have to construct that out of nothing, whereas a male having female traits or a female having male traits is building off existing systems.

[DeKaFu]

I don't generally give much thought to this kind of thing, but on the topic of agender...

No idea if this is normal so it might sound weird, but I've always constantly invented stories and daydreams that I dip into whenever I'm bored or trying to sleep. Generally in these daydreams I'll have a character that stands in for me, even if they aren't particularly like me.

I had a weird moment a few years ago when I suddenly realized that...probably at least 80% of the different characters I'd created over the years as vehicles for myself were both a) physically sexless and b) outwardly either neither or both genders.

So... apparently that's essentially how I see myself. Not terribly interested in labeling myself in any way, though.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

But consistent, meaningful labels can be used as symbols! The sounds "aie Jen dur" are understood to mean something that cannot be perceived, only described. Labels can be bad, but they are not automatically bad.

But in this situation, I suppose I am fine without a label after all. It would be useful to understand gender, though.

I understand that sex is the physical part, and gender roles are the social expectations, etc., for a particular gender. Is gender just feeling that you are a girl/boy (identify as, etc.) or is there something more?

I suppose I'm confused because I haven't really understood what identity means. If my gender is, relative to other people, insignificant to my identity, would that affect my gender, or would I just be cis, with the "unusual" part being a part of my identity, related but not falling under gender?

[Aedel]

Well there's a minor thing called an X or Y chromosome, and having or not having it affects both sex and gendered behavior quite heavily in our nearest relatives.

Non-binary gender is determined by sex chromosomes? What karyotype characterizes a demigirl, then? XX with one arm curlier than average?

Once again, being genderqueer (as opposed to having Klinefelter syndrome, cystic fibrosis or being at-risk for schizophrenia) is in no way backed up by genetics, at least not as far as you have demonstrated, and evolution does not apply to it if this is the case. It is up to you to prove otherwise

Not to be rude, but what on earth is a Demi girl? Isn't that one of those genders 4chan made up to make fun of tumblr on those Pokemon as gender images?                                                                                                                                     

[TheBiggerFish]

Here's hoping that this thread doesn't get set on !!FIRE!! or atom-smashed.

[Neonivek]

Here's hoping that this thread doesn't get set on !!FIRE!! or atom-smashed.

That typically only occurs if one or two people get particularly outraged at one person's opinion.

And a LOT of those people have either been banned or stay off the lower boards now...

[Harry Baldman]

Not to be rude, but what on earth is a Demi girl? Isn't that one of those genders 4chan made up to make fun of tumblr on those Pokemon as gender images?                                                                                                                                     

According to this, it's being a girl, but not entirely. It's somewhere in the middle in terms of credibility between agender and frostgender, since it does sound at least somewhat plausible that you could in good faith arrive at that gender identity (whether it's actually worth splitting hairs between demigirl and female is another question). It is a pretty cool-sounding gender name, though, regardless of the usefulness of its conception.

[Baffler]

Not to be rude, but what on earth is a Demi girl? Isn't that one of those genders 4chan made up to make fun of tumblr on those Pokemon as gender images?                                                                                                                                     

According to this, it's being a girl, but not entirely. It's somewhere in the middle in terms of credibility between agender and frostgender, since it does sound at least somewhat plausible that you could in good faith arrive at that gender identity (whether it's actually worth splitting hairs between demigirl and female is another question).

So... they'd say they're a girl, but not a "girly" girl? I'm not really sure I understand the distinction.

[Harry Baldman]

So... they'd say they're a girl, but not a "girly" girl? I'm not really sure I understand the distinction.

I have no earthly idea. Maybe? Seems like an 'on-the-fence' descriptor. For instance, there's deminonbinary as well, which means that you partly identify with the idea that you identify with an unusual gender or with a specific gender in an unusual way.

You can see how you might start to feel that all of this is perhaps a less than rigorous or even vaguely beneficial approach, to say nothing of the very real possibility that some of these gender identities could very well be made up entirely by somebody attempting satire and it either failing to exceed the threshold of incredulity or spiraling dreadfully out of control.

That's the criticism, in essence, which is that these labels aren't terribly meaningful or useful for any purpose beyond finding a label to describe what is commonly thought to be a personality trait instead.

But consistent, meaningful labels can be used as symbols! The sounds "aie Jen dur" are understood to mean something that cannot be perceived, only described. Labels can be bad, but they are not automatically bad.

But in this situation, I suppose I am fine without a label after all. It would be useful to understand gender, though.

I understand that sex is the physical part, and gender roles are the social expectations, etc., for a particular gender. Is gender just feeling that you are a girl/boy (identify as, etc.) or is there something more?

I suppose I'm confused because I haven't really understood what identity means. If my gender is, relative to other people, insignificant to my identity, would that affect my gender, or would I just be cis, with the "unusual" part being a part of my identity, related but not falling under gender?

Well, there seem to be two types of gender. First is social expectations, but due to weight of tradition that means there's only two, male and female. And the second is internalized expectations extrapolated from social expectations, which is the gender roles that you feel comfortable and happy fulfilling, which can be male, female, kinda male, kinda female, neither, both, some unusual variation, gonna do your own thing, and it's under this second definition that non-binary gender starts to make sense.

Trouble is, once you start dealing with internalized expectations beyond the scope of male and female (which are easily understood and grasped concepts in most cases and for most people), it's unclear whether gender is even applicable in that case (and if it is applicable, to what degree).

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Ah. So I'm not alone in being confused.