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[Criptfeind]

I think there is a failure to communicate.

Yes, that's been obvious from the start of this conversation. You making a misstep in saying you don't need a reason for preferences when you really meant you don't need to elucidate on the actual existing reasons was, I felt three hours ago, not really worth diving further into. But I guessssss not! Hopefully with this it may be possible to put this conversation in the past now though that it's been brought to light.

[wierd]

no, still there.

you are outright saying there must be a reason. I am saying that this is simply untrue.

why do gay people like gay sex? do they need a reason?  I say no.

[Criptfeind]

Gay people who like gay sex like it because they like sex with people of the same gender as them. They like sex with people of the same gender as them because it induces pleasure in them, both physical and emotional. There may be other valid reasons that they like it.

Ultimately, they do have reasons. Everyone who's acting rationally has reasons for what they do. Heck, If you're a determinist, even people not acting rationally have reasons for what they do.

[wierd]

Exactly. Its circular. They like gay sex, because they like gay sex. There is no other reason, the concept of asking for a reason is absurd.

[Criptfeind]

Exactly. Its circular.

No it's not at all. It's not even circular in the post, I did redefine gay sex, basically going in a circle once, because I thought it would be helpful to define what I meant by gay sex in that sentence. But after that I gave two valid reasons (emotional and physical enjoyment). These reasons themselves have their underpinnings, both for why they are desirable, and why they biologically happen. And then those reasons can be further examined, so on and so forth until we get back to the foundation of the universe. Of course we can't literally do that, seeing as we're lacking in ability and time to make such descriptions, but even the start of such a chain, and at least bringing it back to some axiom that can be generally agreed upon (like enjoyment being a rational reason to do something) is a requirement for it to make any logical sense as a statement and rational action to take. Otherwise if you don't need these reasons for preferences and actions you are a wholly irrational being.

[wierd]

no, those are after the fact justifications, not reasons for the preference.

the preference is apriori. the reasons come after.

let me leave you with this smbc. I was very tickled by it when i first saw it. it fits here perfectly.

[Criptfeind]

The claim that all the reasons for why we do things is something we come up with after the fact to justify it, that we decide what we like before we experience it and then only afterwards fabricate reasons for why we enjoyed it... is quite an extraordinary claim, especially in light of my ability to make reasoned justifications for various options before I take them, something I know I'm personally capable of. You know the saying about extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence right...?

Also the smbc comic only seems... Barely related to the discussion at hand, to the point I worry about your reading comprehensions somewhat. This isn't about assigning grand meaning to petty action. This is about assigning meaning at all to action. Even in the comic given the alien gives an example of this, we kill a rival for resources. The gaining of the rivals resources is the reason behind the action of killing.

[wierd]

extraordinary evidence.
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

your rational decision is less real than you think it is.

[Criptfeind]

I had thought that this experiment might be linked, to be honest, some part of me hoped for it in some dark wish for total self satisfaction. A larger part of me hoped that critical thinking skill would prevail enough that it wouldn't be.

You realize that this isn't evidence in the slightest of a lack of reasons behind what people do? Ten seconds is not long enough to inform about a majority of decisions, the decision that was taken in this experiment was so trivial as to be practically to the point of randomness, and even if we're not consciously aware of the reasons why we make decisions that doesn't mean that the reasons we give or realize later are false or made up after the fact.

[wierd]

10 seconds is 1/6th of a minute. it is a freaking eternity.

also, counter argument wrong.
http://discovermagazine.com/2011/sep/18-your-brain-knows-lot-more-than-you-realize

every decision you make is preprocessed. every. single. one.

[Criptfeind]

Your conclusion don't follow your premises.

[wierd]

your experience is happening in realtime with your senses. whether your pleasure center activates or not completely skips your frontal lobe. you rationalize reasons later.

when you choose to do an action, your brain has already worked it out seconds in advance. long before your slow executive functions start. 10 seconds or so in advance. you fabricate a narrative to explain your acton without realizing it.  that is what the science is saying.

the people that like gay sex get activation in thier pleasure centers, then think about why afterward. the gay sex is what is pleasurable. the thoughts about company, togetherness, and other thoughts come afterward. the preference is apriori. the reasons are not.

[Criptfeind]

This doesn't really matter. 10 seconds isn't your whole life. Decisions can be made well in advanced. And even if they are made before we are aware of them consciously, that doesn't render the reasons for them invalid.

[wierd]

sure it does. we attribute value to reasons, but nature does not. i understand the comic better than you did in this respect. we invest so much effort into exlaining what is essentially instinct as rational, that if we could redirect it, we could conquer the galaxy.

the alien is right.

only a really premeditated action is truly the result of rational thought. almost all of your decisions in life are excluded from this class.

when it comes to things like pleasure, it is universally excluded.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I can attest to the ability of humans to rationalize their decisions after they make them. (And additionally to the mental uncomfortableness, to the point of distress, associated with picking those decisions apart.)

How exactly is this S/G-related, again? Seems like A JOB FOR THE PHILOSOPHY THREAD! (You know what's weird? In this thread, I've tried to redirect a conversation to the philthread three times. And this thread isn't a megathread like WTF or Happy. How odd. What is it about S/G that leads to philosophy?)