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[spümpkin]

I've known a fair number of furries on the internet, but I am not one myself, so I don't really want to speak for them, but could this actually be them?

'Furry' is a vague term, at best. Some people are 'kin' and would rather be an animal/character or something (I'm not gonna judge, whatever makes them happy), but I don't think either of these things have to do with actual physical brain structure. Of course, not every person who experiences gender dysphoria gets a brain scan, so who knows if they're really lying or not?

If I'm honest, I've doubted myself in the past on my gender, and spent the last 6 years doing so. But here I go on again about my own story, so I'll cut to the chase :V

People who are trans-{x} have to feel consistently dysphoric to be classified as officially trans-{x}, so I dunno if it counts, no.

My understanding is that there are trans-people who didn't/don't feel consistently dysphoric, that it isn't a requirement (I saw some people saying that euphoria at the thought of being female was also a sign, but I think perhaps not as certain a sign as dysphoria). The ultimate test, though, that would be starting on the hormone therapy - if someone does that and THEN feels newly dysphoric*, then they're not trans, and continuing the hormone therapy (which isn't really a therapy anymore at that point?) would only be mentally harmful.

* To be clear, I mean because suddenly they have the wrong hormones. It's still possible, and I expect some here have experienced it (I talked with someone to whom this has happened), to start on hormones and have dysphoria mostly go away but not entirely, or come back to some degree, because that penis is not a vagina. I also get the impression that it's possible to not have dysphoria from being a woman with a penis, but I have not talked to anyone like that, but "trans-women I have talked to extensively about how they feel" is a sample size of one right now.

Oh, I just meant... The medical condition of transgenderism, means that they, experience dysphoria commonly, and don't necessarily feel dysphoric all the time, but they have to have semi-consistent feelings of dysphoria (say, once every 2/3 months at least ((don't take me entirely seriously I'm not a medical professional))) for a long amount of time, usually over a year-ish. Until then, the medical conditions for blockers and hrt aren't really met yet, and doctors who administer such things are either being too-politically-correct, or are short-sighted in their judgement. Or the situation allows for it, I dunno, I'm not a doctor. But yeah, you're right about the biggest test being once they start hrt.

I do know of trans people who are completely fine with their birth genitalia. It's different for everyone, which makes it a pain to prove :V

[Shadowlord]

Thanks, Reelya, that's helpful.  Maybe this is just one of those things that "science has discovered" without enough good evidence to really be making claims about.

DD: What you're describing is actually called, medically, gender dysphoria. So that's the miscommunication here.

[Rolepgeek]

Well, the short answer is you can't trust people's responses in these surveys.

The survey with 8.6 vs 31.9 was actually life-time prevalence for a cohort in their late 40's. The numbers represent the average number of individual sexual partners in their lifetimes. Coming up with explanations is always interesting because the explanations usually defy common beliefs, or are at odds with other research.

I don't really know about the libido thing. But the fact that women systematically seem to minimize the number of sexual partners they have might mean their answers on "libido" surveys are also suspect. After all, if men are actually counting the number of ladies they've been with, those ladies must have been with the same number of men, yet they only report 1/3rd the number of partners, so they're under-counting by 2/3rds. And even if men are exaggerating: they're probably exaggerating their libido on those surveys as well.

Or there's a lot more...experimentation...by guys than gals.

[Reelya]

That might be, but there's a 3-to-1 discrepancy between how many lifetime female partners men state and how many lifetime male partners women state.

A bit of analysis will show that this is a logical impossibility.

Say that only 5 men and 5 women existed. Each woman reports 1 lifetime male partner, and each man reports 3 lifetime female partners. draw circles to represent the people, Now, try and draw lines between the men and women that satisfy the lifetime partners condition. Good luck!

Clearly, the values must be the same, because it's a symmetrical condition. e.g. if Jim went on 6 dates with Sally, then it can't simultaneously be true that Sally went on 2 dates with Jim. The lifetime sexual partners thing is just that same relationship, but extended to a group: basically, each time there's a unique "pairing" (we're only talking heterosexual here though) it counts as a pairing for both the male and female population, so that number is a shared value. Take the number of unique pairings then divide by the number of men or women to get the true average lifetime partners. Since male and female are close to 50% of the population each, then the value is very close. 3 to 1 is basically impossible unless women outnumber men by 3 times.

[Rolepgeek]

Yes I know Reelya I was making a funny

Men probably overreport while women probably underreport, or different standards for whom/what they consider a partner/sex, or all of the above.

[Grek]

Say that only 5 men and 5 women existed. Each woman reports 1 lifetime male partner, and each man reports 3 lifetime female partners. draw circles to represent the people, Now, try and draw lines between the men and women that satisfy the lifetime partners condition. Good luck.

It works if you take "average" to be median or mode rather than mean?

[Shadowlord]

Say that only 5 men and 5 women existed. Each woman reports 1 lifetime male partner, and each man reports 3 lifetime female partners. draw circles to represent the people, Now, try and draw lines between the men and women that satisfy the lifetime partners condition. Good luck.

Spoiler: I treated this question as a puzzle... and found solutions to it (click to show/hide)

First, none of these works with the real population.


The #000000 circle by itself on the right was an F who had a partner while alive, but then died. The top and bottom rows are or were Fs, the left are Ms, and any circles that are the same color are the same person at different times in their life. In this case, I started with 11 Fs and 0Ms, and converted the top row of Fs to Ms one at a time, starting with purple, then green, yellow, cyan, and red. It's not a realistic solution, obviously, since this does not even remotely resemble the actual population, but I wanted to see if it was possible to find one given the way you worded it.

Alternately, the red one could have just been male the whole time, and instead of the others on the left partnering with that one, the others could have partnered with the later-dead F.

More alternately, it could also be solved with 5 Ms, 5 Fs, and some number* of additional Fs who were alive at one time but had died by the survey. This is probably the closest to being realistic but I don't think even it could be, since it would require female suicide rates somewhere between 2/7ths to 2/3s of the entire female population, and no male suicide at all.

* Minimum of two partnered with every M (5 partners each), or more with less partners each.

[spümpkin]

DD: What you're describing is actually called, medically, gender dysphoria. So that's the miscommunication here.

Yeah. I more meant that generally people have to have medical gender dysphoria for over a year-ish to be considered in need of medical countermeasures. Of course, someone can say whatever they want, but it's generally considered people don't do that. And then there's the fact that everyone experiences dysphoria differently, putting everyone on different places on the continuum...


people are confusing

[Reelya]

Say that only 5 men and 5 women existed. Each woman reports 1 lifetime male partner, and each man reports 3 lifetime female partners. draw circles to represent the people, Now, try and draw lines between the men and women that satisfy the lifetime partners condition. Good luck.

It works if you take "average" to be median or mode rather than mean?

It could ... but you get unfortunate implication that aren't born out by other data. e.g. if it's true the medians diverge, then the difference needs to be made up in the mean. So there needs to be a small subset of women who are sleeping with literally the whole male population. e.g. if the median for men is 3 times the median for women, then perhaps the median man is seeing twice as many prostitutes as he's ever had sex with women in all other circumstances. While possible, the prevalence data on prostitution is nowhere near that (UK, less than 10% of men have ever used one. USA: up to 20%).

[Shadowlord]

Posting my reply in this thread instead of the WTF thread:

In light of recent events and feels... I am pretty sure I'm bisexual.

Spoiler: how do you know this Doz (click to show/hide)

Met with my (male) Astronomy partner [SciOly]. I apparently have a crush on him. It fits all the signs:

1. I like them.
2. I want to be around them.
3. I want them to like me. In fact, I am mildly obsessed with what they think of me.
4. I am nervous around them.
5. I am nervous that they might not like me, that they might think I'm odd
6. I am thus simultaneously driven to be around them, but also to not call any attention to myself in case I appear odd.
7. My eyes frequently jerked toward them and quickly away again.
8. I think that they look good.
9. They are on my list of people I would not mind to cuddle in my dreams.

Yep, Doz, that's a crush alright. Congratulations, you are maybe bisexual!

Spoiler: But I thought you were asexual, Doz...? (click to show/hide)

I had previously called myself asexual, but a between-the-lines understanding of sexuality has lead me to believe that I have latent/retarded sexuality (in the actual sense, not the "dumb" sense). Sexuality/sexual orientation is a pattern in sexual attraction, and sexual attraction is wanting to have sex with somebody, but there is a period of time in which people have crushes on the sex that they are attracted to, but don't want to engage in intercourse with them. My best guess for my sexuality would therefore be based on who I have crushes on, not who I am interested in sticking my genitalia into.

This doesn't feel bad, honestly. It's unlikely to develop into anything - even if it were a girlcrush, there's no way I'd ever work up the courage to ask them out, and I'm not sure if I have the time or interest in dating. And given that the chance of him being non-hetero are minimal, I'd bet a million dollars on this never becoming anything. But it's nice to know, and it's also nice to look at him and be around him. *shysmile*

Interestingly, assuming Hypothesis G-C (genderfluid; the G is for gender and C is for 3rd) is correct, I would rank myself as

Code: [Select]

Male:   ---O------
Female: -O--------
at the time. This would imply that my sexuality is independent of my instantaneous gender-inclination-whatsit, if G-C is true. (If G-C is false, then this is irrelevant.)


Edit: On second thought, this might belong in the G/S thread? It was kind of a wtf moment for me when I realized though. My guesses were hetero or asexual, I never predicted this.

Doze: So, have you ever listened to Shania Twain's song "Man! I Feel Like A Woman!"?

If not, I'll link some videos on youtube, and you can see how they make you feel, if youtube lets you watch them. I'm not sure if they're restricted by country (I'm in the USA).
(I just watched all three now, and I was distracted by her backup dancers in the second video, but that could tell you something too, if it happens to you)

Lyrics (uploaded by someone else, 1080p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gABOfZTMkIs
The original video (480p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJL4UGSbeFg
Live in 2015 (1080p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDkCe2cUHAA

You can know yourself, but doing so though this method is doomed to failure and worse, it can increase your self-ignorance. The world can be understood through categorization and empiricism, but a human mind is neither well-categorized or particularly empirical to its owner. You're not gonna fit in the box. You might identify your dominant feelings or what you want to believe is true, but this will cause suppression of your dissenting side and unknown knowns.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” - Sun Tzu

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Posting my reply in this thread instead of the WTF thread:

In light of recent events and feels... I am pretty sure I'm bisexual.

Spoiler: how do you know this Doz (click to show/hide)

Met with my (male) Astronomy partner [SciOly]. I apparently have a crush on him. It fits all the signs:

1. I like them.
2. I want to be around them.
3. I want them to like me. In fact, I am mildly obsessed with what they think of me.
4. I am nervous around them.
5. I am nervous that they might not like me, that they might think I'm odd
6. I am thus simultaneously driven to be around them, but also to not call any attention to myself in case I appear odd.
7. My eyes frequently jerked toward them and quickly away again.
8. I think that they look good.
9. They are on my list of people I would not mind to cuddle in my dreams.

Yep, Doz, that's a crush alright. Congratulations, you are maybe bisexual!

Spoiler: But I thought you were asexual, Doz...? (click to show/hide)

I had previously called myself asexual, but a between-the-lines understanding of sexuality has lead me to believe that I have latent/retarded sexuality (in the actual sense, not the "dumb" sense). Sexuality/sexual orientation is a pattern in sexual attraction, and sexual attraction is wanting to have sex with somebody, but there is a period of time in which people have crushes on the sex that they are attracted to, but don't want to engage in intercourse with them. My best guess for my sexuality would therefore be based on who I have crushes on, not who I am interested in sticking my genitalia into.

This doesn't feel bad, honestly. It's unlikely to develop into anything - even if it were a girlcrush, there's no way I'd ever work up the courage to ask them out, and I'm not sure if I have the time or interest in dating. And given that the chance of him being non-hetero are minimal, I'd bet a million dollars on this never becoming anything. But it's nice to know, and it's also nice to look at him and be around him. *shysmile*

Interestingly, assuming Hypothesis G-C (genderfluid; the G is for gender and C is for 3rd) is correct, I would rank myself as

Code: [Select]

Male:   ---O------
Female: -O--------
at the time. This would imply that my sexuality is independent of my instantaneous gender-inclination-whatsit, if G-C is true. (If G-C is false, then this is irrelevant.)


Edit: On second thought, this might belong in the G/S thread? It was kind of a wtf moment for me when I realized though. My guesses were hetero or asexual, I never predicted this.

Doze: So, have you ever listened to Shania Twain's song "Man! I Feel Like A Woman!"?

If not, I'll link some videos on youtube, and you can see how they make you feel, if youtube lets you watch them. I'm not sure if they're restricted by country (I'm in the USA).
(I just watched all three now, and I was distracted by her backup dancers in the second video, but that could tell you something too, if it happens to you)

Lyrics (uploaded by someone else, 1080p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gABOfZTMkIs
The original video (480p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJL4UGSbeFg
Live in 2015 (1080p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDkCe2cUHAA

I do not get it. It is a song...?

The thing about my postulated gender... is that it is largely irrelevant. I have figured out that much. Just do what you feel is right for you. This whole gender-guess thing was based off of a single "I am non-binary and this is how I classify myself" slide in a gender presentation, and some experimentation with "which of these feels 'more right,' hypothetically." The classification is flawed, the experiment is flawed, it's all more biased than your racist uncle. It only really reflects how I think I would prefer to see myself.

Regardless of the flaws in the experiment, it at least shows that gender doesn't matter much to me. Nobody could tell the difference between "Doz, with internal gender slider further to the left" and "Doz... right", because there was no discernable change. If I woke up tomorrow as a girl, I might like it more, or I might like it less, but I would go about my life in exactly the same way as always.

I suppose I could just go with genderqueer. It's probably safe to say that I'm not a "wannabe special snowflake," so genderqueer is likely to be an accurate description.

[Shadowlord]

Yes, it's a song.

And if I have to choose a box, what better box than bisexuality? It just means "I may or may not be attracted to any given person." It carries no restrictions.

Except people who identify as something outside the gender binary. The "bi" only covers male and female.

[Rolepgeek]

Yes, it's a song.

And if I have to choose a box, what better box than bisexuality? It just means "I may or may not be attracted to any given person." It carries no restrictions.

Except people who identify as something outside the gender binary. The "bi" only covers male and female.

Says you.

[Shadowlord]

Yes, it's a song.

And if I have to choose a box, what better box than bisexuality? It just means "I may or may not be attracted to any given person." It carries no restrictions.

Except people who identify as something outside the gender binary. The "bi" only covers male and female.

Says you.

It has a bi prefix. Bi means two. vOv

[spümpkin]

Yes, it's a song.

And if I have to choose a box, what better box than bisexuality? It just means "I may or may not be attracted to any given person." It carries no restrictions.

Except people who identify as something outside the gender binary. The "bi" only covers male and female.

Says you.

Typically, pansexual is used for non-binaries+binaries :V