Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I don't console people with gender dysphoria IF I have a choice...

Because I am not the best person for the job silly

I am far too clumsy and temperamental. I'd just end up hurting them somehow.

But usually you don't get a choice, someone needs to talk.

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted it as "I don't console them because I don't think their pain is legitimate."

[Neonivek]

That is fine... things seem a lot more clear in my head.

Besides you didn't go on a tirade over what I said. You were like "WTF!!! wait... maybe it is a lot more reasonable then I am thinking".

Which is a much more preferable reaction

[Edmus]

oh shit
How do I start a conversation like that? *is a clueless and nervous socially incompetent person*

Don't panic, me too.
Work out who you need to talk to first.
For me it was the school councillor.
Then I was faced with the issue, 'how do I talk to her?'
This might be different for you, but I went to the front office, unplugged my thinking self from my doing self (like how you do when you jump into a pool) and asked for an appointment. 
Another option is sliding a note with contact details under the councillor's door, getting their number, getting a doctors appointment for some other issue...
It's easy to get there, you just have to commit to it. There's nothing but yourself stopping you.

Once in there...
For me I had a linked event, like, mine was 'I not too long ago broke into tears trying to study maths.'
The direct cause for that was being in the closet, so her line of enquiry followed along reasons for my stress until it cornered the proper reason.
Which was actually my plan.

[Tiruin]

re Dozebôm,

From my experience, school councillors are very good.
It is their job to be compassionate, and your problem is one that can be tackled far more directly than the poverty cycle teens they are used to.
They are very understanding, even of all the introspective-seeming-nonsense we never share; speaking to mine was one of the best decisions I've made.
If you're dubious as to the quality of the school councillor, doctors too are trained for compassion.
They mightn't know what to do, but can give you a referral to someone that does, and are sworn to secrecy.
If you decide to tell someone, the best tip for spilling the beans of a secret is to work yourself into a corner from somewhere innocuous.
"I recently did X"
Why did you do X?
"Because I constantly feel Y?"


Do you have any idea why you feel Y?
Nowhere to go, alphabet exhausted: "Z"

The best of luck to you!

Thanks! I think that I will try that.

oh shit

How do I start a conversation like that? *is a clueless and nervous socially incompetent person*

Psych student here with a 'mentor' that is a Guidance COunselor--you can start ANYWAY you want because you're in part also responding to the other person

There is no 'right way' other than the usual etiquette and you being there with the other person.
And, if you do mention that you're nervous, you'll get a response that'll help you. What mind said when I mentioned 'I'm worried that you won't understand because I'll most likely say it out piece by piece and it's not really going to sound connected' was (paraphrased, grr memory >_>; paraphrased because she knew I'm in the course and aiming to be one) 'Professionals can connect the dots; it however needs you to start Don't worry yourself too much there'.
...There was a very obvious note of warmth tha thelped me a lot there but I'm unsure how the wording was :I

Ok I won't lie...

I SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY wonder how much of Gender Dysphoria is just... completely just the person bending to gender norms and their expectations of gender normative behavior and body image.

If you're going to wonder about that--please, please beware of one's own context in processing the situation. Like, I recall you're in America, so part of the context would be your exposure and experience...and personally there's somewhat of a o_O with some sources of information there given how extreme the ideas are, or at least how I'm aware the ideas are there. Many are very useful and insightful, but there's also mention of the extreme/narrow information being mixed in.

And no--the 'completely' part is out of the question Taking in the note of Gender Dysphoria, it's both a response to the environment, a persistent affect to the person (I've to format a significant mark here because of what I guess how casual it is missed in the common viewpoint, as both persistence/time, and especially external context is VERY IMPORTANT), the environment itself, and the judgement of the ones viewing them.
Like, the culture of where one is at is VERY IMPORTANT because it's what they're in contact with 24/7. That includes 24/7 units of time's worth of thoughts. That includes less of the 'conformity' theme and more of 'There's a lot I'm responding to, this is very important to note in how I respond' theme.

However there's a lot there that I bet you're not stating because of that curiosity and further dee-tails. I'd love to hear those added details btw. :3 You've a lot of thoughts under what you post and many times it's left unsaid.

[Solifuge]

Ok I won't lie...

I SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY wonder how much of Gender Dysphoria is just... completely just the person bending to gender norms and their expectations of gender normative behavior and body image.

If there is one thing that bugs me about someone going through it, it is why I don't console people suffering from gender dysphoria if I have the option, it is that they will sometimes point to societal conventions as excuses...

This isn't always the case... but I want to slap someone who goes "I like puppy calendars so I am a girl"... and I am not taking that back.

Then again... there is quite a bit to suggest that I am onto something... but I won't go there because it is too depressing a topic that is too interwoven into political issues AND is too polarized to ever get a meaningful topic out of it.

I think it's important to take people's feelings or experiences seriously, and not doubt them just because we don't feel the same as they do. It's one of those situations where, unless we develop a technology that can stream experiences or neural impulses from one person to another, only the person experiencing it can actually know. And trusting their feelings doesn't cost anyone else anything. I don't see the harm.

That said, even as a genderqueer transperson, I wonder about this stuff too. I understand Body Dysphoria, but Gender Dysphoria doesn't really make sense to me. I've never identified with or adhered to any Gender, except when coerced by family or peers or whatever. When people called me "miss" or said I was being girly, I kinda liked that. When people called me "sir" or young man or whatever, I kinda disliked that. Most of the effects of puberty felt kinda shitty, but not catastrophically; I just dealt with it. I barely even noticed that it felt shitty, until some time later, when I got fresh perspective and started to connect the dots.

So yeah, I experience just enough Body Dysphoria to kinda get it, but I have a hard time understanding Gender Dysphoria. Gender Roles are made up and arbitrary; they're social standards, like what side of the plate to put the forks and spoons on. I don't see the harm in people picking one that they like, rather than sticking with one that other people gave them. If they want to dress pretty and gaze lovingly at puppy calendars, and that's part of being "Feminine" for them, more power to them. If they want to dress in camo cargo pants and get into fistfights, and that's part of being "Masculine" for them, ditto. If they just want to define their own visual style and way of being, fuck the conventions, that's totally cool; why should whichever tribal chief decided what counted as Masculine or Feminine Behavior get to have all the fun?

[Rolan7]

To be honest I would doubt gender dysphoria quite a bit, except that experts seem pretty convinced that it's a real thing.  That's good enough for me.  I haven't really known any trans people in meatspace.  I met two different FtMs through friends of mine, which was eye-opening, but didn't really hang out with them much.  Mainly I heard second-hand stories of how hard it was for said friends to adjust.  (Particularly the ex-boyfriends)

Until that time I just knew genderswap stories as fun experimentation.  My first response was basically "I feel like being the other gender sometimes too but not nearly so dramatically".  Glad I pretty much kept that to myself though   I'm not psychologist, I defer to their expertise.

Heck maybe I feel a little guilty about that (maybe I accidentally gave someone even more doubt in a difficult time).  So while some people are definitely just hopping on a trend, like I would be doing, I'm happy to just unconditionally support people and hope they get professional assistance.  Since I am in no position to judge or give advice.

It's just so weird and tragic seeing people so desperate to have either gender, much less one their body doesn't match.  That's my personal feelings making it hard to understand others, though.

[Tiruin]

It's just so weird and tragic seeing people so desperate to have either gender, much less one their body doesn't match.  That's my personal feelings making it hard to understand others, though.

It's less 'have' and more 'external factors', really. There's a lot to cover with this kind of discussion that online interaction can only do so much--self-education will really help a lot in that matter because you are the first person able to notice where you may improve, and others can help by the large amount of information available that work with seminal data because the influence or impression of first-hand experiences (also would help observers that are not experiencing or have developed an idea from second or third-hand sources) have a basis and process.

It's a ton less 'this is made up or being misplaced by the process of cognition'. Really.
But always put in mind that your locality and whatever happens therein is also just as important (eg Are there conflicting sources of information, is there a culture of conflicting information, is there something with how information is being presented, how broad is my basis of what I had just concluded, how many experiences am I basing this on and what else may the context cover, what are the common terms being used and what is the baseline meaning presented, etc)

[ECrownofFire]

To be honest I would doubt gender dysphoria quite a bit, except that experts seem pretty convinced that it's a real thing.  That's good enough for me.  I haven't really known any trans people in meatspace.  I met two different FtMs through friends of mine, which was eye-opening, but didn't really hang out with them much.  Mainly I heard second-hand stories of how hard it was for said friends to adjust.  (Particularly the ex-boyfriends)

Until that time I just knew genderswap stories as fun experimentation.  My first response was basically "I feel like being the other gender sometimes too but not nearly so dramatically".  Glad I pretty much kept that to myself though   I'm not psychologist, I defer to their expertise.

Heck maybe I feel a little guilty about that (maybe I accidentally gave someone even more doubt in a difficult time).  So while some people are definitely just hopping on a trend, like I would be doing, I'm happy to just unconditionally support people and hope they get professional assistance.  Since I am in no position to judge or give advice.

It's just so weird and tragic seeing people so desperate to have either gender, much less one their body doesn't match.  That's my personal feelings making it hard to understand others, though.

It's not something you really can understand unless you've experienced it. Most people don't even think about gender much at all. You are who you are and that's the end of that. Never really question it. Most cis people don't even consider what it'd be like to be the other gender.

One somewhat similar feeling is when people assume you're straight. If you're a guy, they ask you if you've gotten a girlfriend yet. Ask you when you're gonna have a wife. There's nothing wrong with being straight, but it's not you, so it almost hurts when people assume it. That gets pretty damn awkward sometimes, and if you know your family is homophobic...

But that's something you usually only hear from friends and family. Now imagine you get asked that constantly, by every stranger who ever says a word to you. Every single person not only assumes you're straight, but basically constantly rubs it into your face. Again, nothing wrong with being straight, but it's not who you are. (This is basically the concept of "heteronormativity", but that's not the focus right now)

[BlackHeartKabal]

Ugh, more harassment of female creators. Chelsea Cain this time. Fuck Gamergate and all of its spawn.

What's an industry's consumer revolt got to do with the topic...?

Also, I'm genuinely surprised this thread hasn't crashed into the sun yet. I honestly have very little understanding of people in general, let alone these things, but is your identity necessarily a major deal to you compared to other aspects of yourself and your life? It's probably due to my background, but I'm very subdued about everything related to that (and deep in the closet, which will never change). I think the only time I've been genuinely nervous about that is when I came out to bay, and I got over that quickly. It's not something I keep in conscious thought and I have to remind myself sometimes, but I'm curious about others.

[Edmus]

So far as sexuality I found the closet was easy to stay in when I was single.
It just gets pushed to the back of the mind and happily stays put.
A relationship keeps pulling it out and it all starts to feel like a big lie, rather than a minor secret.
I can't speak for gender, I think it's a different kettle of fish.

[spümpkin]

Ugh, more harassment of female creators. Chelsea Cain this time. Fuck Gamergate and all of its spawn.

Also, I'm genuinely surprised this thread hasn't crashed into the sun yet. I honestly have very little understanding of people in general, let alone these things, but is your identity necessarily a major deal to you compared to other aspects of yourself and your life?

Well, it's sort of a big deal when the pieces don't match up :p

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Ugh, more harassment of female creators. Chelsea Cain this time. Fuck Gamergate and all of its spawn.

What's an industry's consumer revolt got to do with the topic...?

...isn't misogyny relevant? (Also, I could be wrong about what Gamergate is, but IIRC parts of it included misogyny? It's rather confusing, there's what they said they were doing and then there's what they actually did AFAIK.)

Ah, okay, searched a bit more. Yes, Gamergate says that it's trying to bring about "editorial integrity" or some shit, but they're really just bashing women who dare to enter the gaming/game-making/game-writing-about community. So this is similar to Gamergate. As for "how it's relevant", I dunno? It's about misogyny, right? We've discussed more than just cis/trans and hetero/homo here, we've also discussed gender roles and other things about women and men. That's gender, it fit in this thread, right? I just figured I would mention it.

Also, I'm genuinely surprised this thread hasn't crashed into the sun yet.

Why is that? Because it's too much of a heated topic?

I honestly have very little understanding of people in general, let alone these things, but is your identity necessarily a major deal to you compared to other aspects of yourself and your life?

Well, your identity is you, but I'll assume that you mean gender identity.

It's really not as much of a big deal for me as for other people, my freaking-out was the combination of self-loathing expressed as hating my body and the feeling of not knowing. Gender etc. isn't that important to me, but my Bogus Gibber-Babble (perception-changing shit) does make me feel a little happier, so I'll go with that.

It's probably due to my background, but I'm very subdued about everything related to that (and deep in the closet, which will never change). I think the only time I've been genuinely nervous about that is when I came out to bay, and I got over that quickly. It's not something I keep in conscious thought and I have to remind myself sometimes, but I'm curious about others.

I honestly think that gender has been made into a bigger deal than it should be, just like race and male/female and sexual orientation and all that stuff people use to hate people. If society was perfect, I don't think that gender dysphoria would be nearly as significant as now. But I really can't speak for people with gender dysphoria, since AFAIK I didn't have it; it was purely coincidental that a period of depression overlapped with questioning my gender.

Spoiler: some explanation (click to show/hide)

Dysphoria is a "profound state of unease or distress," and gender dysphoria is simply dysphoria that is a symptom of gender and sex not matching. It is caused by either/or how people see you and how you see yourself. And you wouldn't call sadness "weak depression" (they are distinct, and also different levels of badfeels), so you wouldn't call "very minor distress caused by questioning gender" "weak dysphoria." I had the former, but there is a minimum level of distress required for something to be dysphoria, and "caused by questioning gender" =/= "caused by a mismatch of gender".

I don't mind if people think that gender isn't that important, and I think most everybody would agree, as long as you stay away from diminishing the pain of those with gender dysphoria. Just be decent, and you can think and question anything.

================================

Armokdamnit, why didn't I do this before? I formulated the rewards and risk for each course of action I could take (HRT, no HRT), and it is painfully obvious that HRT would be a bad idea. Graphs and equations! Bah, who needs counseling when they have logic?

Spoiler: logic (click to show/hide)

Reward of HRT = a*o - c.e.
Risk of HRT= b*o + b.r. + s.r. + i.r.

o is "how important gender is to me", it's probably low
c.e. is the current effectiveness of what I'm doing
b.r. is the biological risk associated with messing with my hormones
s.r. is the risk associated with being unable to pass as cis (minor, but still positive)
i.r. is the risk that the end result of HRT produces even more distress than now

a and b are proportionality things, dependent on how far away from the "probably my gender" I am now and I would be after HRT. I'm not sure how much of treating gender dysphoria is HRT and how much is surgery, so depending on how far HRT goes it could either be "androgyny" or "just as gendered as now, except feminine". If the former, than HRT is probably a bad idea. If the latter, HRT is definitely a horrible idea. Statistics would imply that if I'm unsure, I'm more likely to be cis than trans - betting that I'm trans is definitely too much of a risk.

So HRT would be a good idea if:

1. o is very high, or the reward/risk 'addons' negligible
Neither is the case.

2. and I'm trans (a>>b)
Probably not; androgyne is my current best guess, but who knows

Such a great weight off my back, not having to worry about my gender anymore. How did I come to that conclusion?

As long as no permanent alterations are done (surgery/HRT), it doesn't matter if I'm wrong. What could happen? Mental stability issues? Pfff, haha, like I have any of that to worry about. Being seen as weird because I occasionally hold my body like a girl or something? I'm already seen as weird.

And if I'm only deluding myself into thinking that perceiving myself as androgynous makes me happier, and I have a way of doing so without any downsides... I'll take that!

If I am really androgyne, okay, I've dealt with it pretty well so far. As I practice my BGB (bogus gibber-babble), I'm becoming even better at changing my self-perception and holding it, so... I'll be fine continuing like this.

The only part that made me distressed was "is it a good idea to do HRT," which required me to know whether I was actually androgyne" or not. But HRT is a bad idea regardless of my gender (unless I'm trans, but I'm pretty sure I'm not), so that doesn't matter!

[Rolan7]

Gamergate is a banned topic guys, tread very carefully.
Suffice to say one side says it's about the integrity of video game news sources, and the other side says it's about misogyny.  The huge distance between those concepts kinda speaks to how irrational any discussion of the topic inevitably gets.

Coming in after a few minutes and saying "Oh I see it's about misogyny" is basically an unintentional declaration of war, just warning.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Well, that was my first perception after reading various things, but thanks for the warning. I'll make sure not to mention it again. (I thought it was only MLP and NMS that were banned... is there a list somewhere, or do you just learn it?)

[Grimlocke]

Wait, MLP is banned? We have several MLP-themed dwarf fortress mods in the modding section...