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[hops]

On one hand I feel like we're veering too far into politics, but I have no idea what else could be discussed. We can't discuss sexuality without somebody freaking out about teh gays.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Well, there was a time when this thread was being used to help people figure out gender and share experiences with annoying governments. Then Billy came in.

Hmm.

I'm tempted to say "no debating whether transgender people are actually transgender," but that seems hard to enforce (where's the line set?). It also seems like a natural part of this thread. And of course the "teh gay" people would whine about being silenced because of their ideas, where's the free speech? see? the feminists just ignore every argument they can't respond to.

[Skyrunner]

the feminists just ignore every argument they can't respond to

Either I read the tone of your post wrong, or I take offense to your statement!

[Phmcw]

I don't understand a lot of the opinions of the peoples in this thread :

-Men and women do have biological difference, but they vary widely between individuals.
-Men and women do have difference in temperament, on average, but they vary between individual

Can't we just admit that gender play a limited part on who we are and is a concept not all that relevant for the individual?
I I want to be seductive I wear a nice, coloured suit, and my sisters did army stuff learnt to shoot and did parachuting.

I know girls with low sex drive that like to be modest, and I know guys who are their exact carbon copy in term of temperament.

My girlfriend is cute and girly but is doing a phd and isn't interested nor comfortable with kids. I am 2m high, weight more than 100kg, listen to metal but I  do the bulk of housekeeping and will probably look after the kids.


In the states especially, and in conservative European familly, I think that peoples try to redefine gender and sexuality all the time because they are surprised that neither their gender nor their sexuality define them 100%.

[Skyrunner]

only if it were as simple as admitting gender has limited part and is not relevant for an individual. some people agree, some people disagree, some go to the extreme and put stock in biological essentialism. To you, the admission that gender has limited importance is obvious, but to someone like Billy that statement is utter bullsplint.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

That's what I'm trying to say, sort of. There have been attempts to raise children "without gender." They have failed. I think that's not the right idea, but Billy has used it against me, so I'm admitting that differences do exist between males and females, but only minimal ones.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

the feminists just ignore every argument they can't respond to

Either I read the tone of your post wrong, or I take offense to your statement!

Sorry, should've used quotes. I was being sarcastic.

[Jimmy]

Today I made the kids' breakfast while my wife got ready for work, I packed their lunchboxes, took them to school/daycare, then went to work myself for five hours, drove back to pick up my daughter from school, took her to her swimming lesson, picked up her brother afterwards from daycare, cooked their dinner, and I'll get them ready for bed soon. Tomorrow will be the same, except substitute the swimming lesson for gymnastics, plus it'll be the weekly vacuuming and mopping day for me in the evening. Saturday I'll have the kids while my wife works too, and we'll probably go out somewhere like the swimming pool or the park, depending on the weather.

Then Sunday switches and I work late through to Wednesday, with my wife taking over child care duties. There's nothing I see in this arrangement that's emasculating or threatening to my identity as a male. If anything, I think the men who avoid taking part in their children's lives are the ones that are weak. I changed dirty nappies when we had babies. I fed my children bottles at 2AM when they cried. I read them bedtime stories every night. A real man isn't scared of any job, he knuckles down and does what needs to be done.

[saigo]

4. Sure, men technically passed the laws that gave women rights. But women were pretty important - I doubt anything would have happened nearly as soon if women hadn't stood up. It is true, though, that men were crucial in the women's rights movement.

I think we can say it was an achievement made by society as a whole, rather than any one group. Something everyone can be proud of.

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs is quite clearly not referring to legal equality. It's not like having the right to vote ends discrimination/sexism/racism (as shown by the poster on here who thinks a women's proper role is in the house, being subservient to male authority :/).

Public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of equality of the sexes. Women's legal rights were not granted in a vacuum, they were granted because the public was in favour, much like homosexuality laws more recently. Gender roles are in the same category. Most people understand that they are merely generalisations, and individuals will be individuals.

I don't see any reason to believe BillyTheKid's opinions are widespread. Present, certainly, especially among older generations who tend to be more conservative. I also believe that people holding such beliefs do not pose a significant barrier to women who wish to achieve their goals.

Ending discrimination is a fool's errand. There will always be people with bigoted views. There will always be people who are rude or unpleasant, because this is human nature. The only way to deal with this is to look past them and move on.

[Rolan7]

It's like 4AM and my friends and I just watched that song from Mulan, but the Cantonese version by Jackie Chan...  As he does katas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLJJc8siyU

Just thought it was funny and somewhat relevant to the thread.

[chaoticag]

That's what I'm trying to say, sort of. There have been attempts to raise children "without gender." They have failed. I think that's not the right idea, but Billy has used it against me, so I'm admitting that differences do exist between males and females, but only minimal ones.

Well,raising someone gender neutral shouldn't be a problem I think? Idea being not that you'll end up with children with no idea of what gender is, but that your kid would be more at ease without having to conform to society's perception of gender.

Ending discrimination is a fool's errand. There will always be people with bigoted views. There will always be people who are rude or unpleasant, because this is human nature. The only way to deal with this is to look past them and move on.

I can't help but read this argument as we cannot accomplish goal A 100%, therefore we should not try to do so. Certainly making it harder for hate to win out is always a good thing. Besides that, there's worries about bodily harm, emotional distress or death, not just simply "people being rude or unpleasant".

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

4. Sure, men technically passed the laws that gave women rights. But women were pretty important - I doubt anything would have happened nearly as soon if women hadn't stood up. It is true, though, that men were crucial in the women's rights movement.

I think we can say it was an achievement made by society as a whole, rather than any one group. Something everyone can be proud of.

Sure, that sounds better. Note to self: you are not infallible.

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs is quite clearly not referring to legal equality. It's not like having the right to vote ends discrimination/sexism/racism (as shown by the poster on here who thinks a women's proper role is in the house, being subservient to male authority :/).

Public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of equality of the sexes. Women's legal rights were not granted in a vacuum, they were granted because the public was in favour, much like homosexuality laws more recently. Gender roles are in the same category. Most people understand that they are merely generalisations, and individuals will be individuals.

I don't see any reason to believe BillyTheKid's opinions are widespread. Present, certainly, especially among older generations who tend to be more conservative. I also believe that people holding such beliefs do not pose a significant barrier to women who wish to achieve their goals.

Ending discrimination is a fool's errand. There will always be people with bigoted views. There will always be people who are rude or unpleasant, because this is human nature. The only way to deal with this is to look past them and move on.

But the problem with that is thus: if we stop pushing for equal rights, and the bigots don't stop, progress will decay. Compromise doesn't work with those people.

And, you know, things aren't quite equal yet for everybody. Maybe our work with women is done. We've still got race, disability, sexual orientation, and gender equality left.

That's what I'm trying to say, sort of. There have been attempts to raise children "without gender." They have failed. I think that's not the right idea, but Billy has used it against me, so I'm admitting that differences do exist between males and females, but only minimal ones.

Well,raising someone gender neutral shouldn't be a problem I think? Idea being not that you'll end up with children with no idea of what gender is, but that your kid would be more at ease without having to conform to society's perception of gender.

Does a quick search

Dammit, that's what I get for listening to people like Billy. There are these myths, I suppose they are, of attempts to raise children without letting them even touch the "gender-appropriate" toys (trucks, dolls), which inevitably fail when the child finds the "right" toys and loves them.

Goddammit. That is obviously made up.

[hops]

It always make me feel happier that at the end of the day, most abrasive Bay12ers are social outcasts.

(Including me)

[saigo]

I can't help but read this argument as we cannot accomplish goal A 100%, therefore we should not try to do so. Certainly making it harder for hate to win out is always a good thing. Besides that, there's worries about bodily harm, emotional distress or death, not just simply "people being rude or unpleasant".

Sorry, I didn't express that very well. We should stop people from acting on bigoted opinions, but we can't stop them from having those opinions.

But the problem with that is thus: if we stop pushing for equal rights, and the bigots don't stop, progress will decay. Compromise doesn't work with those people.

And, you know, things aren't quite equal yet for everybody. Maybe our work with women is done. We've still got race, disability, sexual orientation, and gender equality left.

I suppose my concern is that we push for equality so much that we arrive at communism. I don't like communism.

Dammit, that's what I get for listening to people like Billy. There are these myths, I suppose they are, of attempts to raise children without letting them even touch the "gender-appropriate" toys (trucks, dolls), which inevitably fail when the child finds the "right" toys and loves them.

Goddammit. That is obviously made up.

It sounds like something that would be very interesting to study, if it hasn't been already.

[Skyrunner]

The pesky ethics review boards strike again.