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Author Topic: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc  (Read 271917 times)

Jopax

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1455 on: April 15, 2018, 08:13:48 am »

^ that basically.

I don't know if it's the article writer or whoever works PR for the company in question, but that's shitty wording that can be rather misleading when it comes to a certain key aspect of the whole venture. If they simply said 'gravity-assisted' irrigation it'd been fine, because in that case it's clear that there's more to it than that.
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Trekkin

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1456 on: April 15, 2018, 11:40:34 am »

While I'm not sure about going full-on microbiotic environment control, the contained structure does help reduce the risk of the modified plants themselves escaping into the local ecosystem and becoming invasive species. Which itself is a concern, especially in more fragile/susceptible areas.

It also helps prevent unwanted plants and fungi from coming in, which is arguably a more pervasive concern from a production standpoint since they're ubiquitous. Conveniently, anything put in place to inhibit their introduction also helps keep out other nonnative microbiota. It needn't be a clean room any more than a BSL 1 laboratory is a clean room, but even something as simple as having people wear basic PPE would help immensely in keeping desired plants/bacteria from being overwhelmed, GMO or no. That's considerably less feasible when growing plants in an open field.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 11:44:32 am by Trekkin »
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Max™

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1457 on: April 15, 2018, 03:52:33 pm »

Microbiota are hard to keep contained.  You would need very aggressive clean-room style entrance and exit protocols, which would drive up operating costs, and would not look pretty to (morons, er...) "Skeptics" who are afraid of such things.
I really dislike the lumping in of people who prefer their own beliefs with people who prefer to leave no unchallenged beliefs. I approach things skeptically because it seems foolish to accept anything without a solid foundation in rational thought, it's ok to just call people who want to be obstinant or cling to their beliefs what they are: dumbasses. If they were being skeptical they would question their own beliefs as well, and fuck shit like fox news for running with the idea that being an ignorant dumbfuck is the same thing as being a credible skeptic.
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Trekkin

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1458 on: April 15, 2018, 06:51:44 pm »

I approach things skeptically because it seems foolish to accept anything without a solid foundation in rational thought, it's ok to just call people who want to be obstinant or cling to their beliefs what they are: dumbasses. If they were being skeptical they would question their own beliefs as well, and fuck shit like fox news for running with the idea that being an ignorant dumbfuck is the same thing as being a credible skeptic.

Every flat earther, anti-vaxxer, homeopath, baraminologist and pyramid honey truther would say the same, you know. A vanishingly small proportion of people don't think they're rational, much like very few people believe themselves to be evil, and yet a whole universe of patently ludicrous crankery persists undaunted. I'm not saying you're wrong to not like conflating skepticism and stupidity, but I am saying that "I'm a real skeptic" sounds a lot like "I'm not like other girls" or "I am a very stable genius", in that it's the sort of statement people for whom it's true generally don't feel the need to make. It's easy to call other people morons and question data and offer endless value judgments on other people's work, and doing so can make one sound smart, but the vast majority of people who decide they're too canny to believe the scientific consensus and will decide the truth of the universe for themselves and for that reason trumpet their skepticism to the world give the rest a bad name.
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Trekkin

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1459 on: April 15, 2018, 08:59:58 pm »

Alright, I've heard of the rest, but "baraminologist"? What's that supposed to be?

Baraminology (or "discontinuity systematics") is an attempt to reconcile the Biblical account of Noah carrying two of every "kind" of animal with a modern understanding of how many species there are by asserting that "kind" refers to a taxonomically vague group created separately from all the other "kinds" that would in turn go on to rapidly diversify into some large number of species; they generally accept evolution within a "kind" but not across "kinds". The word "baramin" itself is an inept mashup of two Hebrew words used with various prefixes to denote one of these "kinds."

This generally involves a very creative understanding of molecular taxonomy, to say the least. Or just taking a diagram of the tree of life, cutting off everything but the top bit, and asserting there were dozens/hundreds of independent origins of cows and birds and snakes and so forth (and yes, they generally divide things into baramins by their common names, biological reality be damned) instead of one/a few origins of life.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:02:36 pm by Trekkin »
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wierd

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1460 on: April 15, 2018, 09:07:59 pm »

Indeed.  There is a reason I used big, nasty scare quotes on the word "Skeptics". 

there are skeptics--- myself being skeptical that you can safely contain microbiota on the cheap without due diligence---  (because they exchange genetic material all the time, which means the containment is as much keeping wild types out, as keeping usefully modified organisms in, if nothing else, just to keep the induced modification at high levels of expression in the system because genetically engineered organisms are typically less reproductively fit than wild-type.)

and there are "Skeptics"-- Like people convinced that vaccination causes autism, despite epic buttloads of studies showing no causal link. (They are "Skeptical" of the follow up research showing no link. For reasons.)

I was referring to the latter, and (In my not so humble opinion) conflating them with being morons. :P

More specifically, the people that are "Skeptical" of the harmlessness of a bacterium that has been modified to express a useful but benign protein, being used to better facilitate crop management in an enclosed system.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:16:55 pm by wierd »
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Reelya

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1461 on: April 15, 2018, 10:05:16 pm »

While I'm not sure about going full-on microbiotic environment control, the contained structure does help reduce the risk of the modified plants themselves escaping into the local ecosystem and becoming invasive species. Which itself is a concern, especially in more fragile/susceptible areas.

That's just being pedantic now and not really proving anything. e.g. perhaps there's 80% less pump pressure needed this way, which would be in line with the claim. e.g. there wasn't any claim that the entire company was "pump free" was there? Just that the way that each tower disperse the nutrients is by gravity, with removes the need for pumps.

I kinda feel like this is needlessly aggressive... The wording is a bit ambiguous and could easily be interpreted to mean "no pumps at all", and as with all "groundbreaking" startups, it's healthy to have a fair dose of skepticism before they've actually broken any ground. Hell, Kickstarter should be a great example of this... "Our system is unique in that it completely solves and avoids these common problems met by our competitors", and then slightly later "turns out we actually ran into the same problems, because we couldn't figure out a solution like we thought we'd be able to by now".

Then again, it's Vox, so I wouldn't necessarily place the blame for miscommunication on the actual startup.

Sorry if that came across as aggressive, but let me clarify my point.

I think the context is important however. Clearly, if you've got the nutrients into the building, that's involved effort. The effort to raise the nutrients 20 feet at that point is a minimal part of the process.

What's important is what the method was being compared against - which was vertical farming systems that use stacks of horizontal shelves. e.g. when you use horizontal shelves, then you need pressurized pumps on each shelf that pump the nutrients across each level to ensure that all plants receive nutrients. Whereas, when the plants are jutting out sideways from a vertical structure, gravity does that for you. Pointing out that energy is needed to raise the nutrients up the tower is missing the point being made - the horizontal shelves method also needs energy to raise the nutrients up to the level of each shelf, then needs pressurized pumps to spread it horizontally.

e.g. the vertical nature of the towers was being compared to horizontal shelving, e.g. it's pointing out what's different about this method of vertical farming vs previous methods of vertical farming. In each case, you needed energy to get the nutrients into the right location to start with, an extra couple of feet isn't a deal-breaker and isn't really cogent with the claim being made, which was pretty straightforward.

and if the farm is multi-level you don't need ladders and buckets (which is sort of an appeal to ridicule, since the whole point of vertical farming is that it scales vertically whereas needing ladders implies you're operating on a single level). Less pumps is less moving parts, less that can break down, less that needs servicing, and less energy needed. If you have employees on the level above, already, it's trivial to get them to top up some nutrient tanks manually for the level below - hey you expended energy getting the employees up there already so if they carry some stuff up the stairs or it goes up in the service lift with them, then that's a minimal expenditure of energy and much less flaky than trying to pump it up.

This is why I said it was being overly pedantic - a counter-argument can be so pedantic that it actually loses sight of important contextual information about the point being made: pointing out that theoretically it needs energy to raise anything, anywhere ... misses the point that the article was contrasting vertical plant shelving vs horizontal plant shelving - and this is clear from context since it was the vertical shelving concept itself (and not vertical farming in general) which was being referenced in the quote you disputed.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 10:41:59 pm by Reelya »
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Max™

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1462 on: April 16, 2018, 01:21:04 am »

[...]saying that "I'm a real skeptic"[...]
Weeeeellll... strictly speaking, I can't provide evidence that I am real, but it is more likely that I'm an actual person than the mashup of nonsense needed to replace my existence with a hallucination or advanced spambot or whatever. :D
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Egan_BW

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1463 on: April 16, 2018, 02:07:41 am »

But what about the much more realistic possibility that you're a figment of my memory, created years after this forum stopped existing, as a sort of amalgamation of several different people that I can't remember very well and have thus congealed into a single entity?
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wierd

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1464 on: April 16, 2018, 02:24:48 am »

Then I would direct this misguided proto-demiurge toward the nearest solipsist self-help forum, and get on with my life. :P
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IcyTea31

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1465 on: April 16, 2018, 03:01:12 am »

A support group for solipsists sounds like something that would go either horribly wrong or incredibly well.

"No, my mind is the one that exists, and you're imaginary!"
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Reelya

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1466 on: April 16, 2018, 03:14:28 am »

Why would you want to even be a solipsist? That would be admitting that all the horrible stuff that ever happened in the world is a direct manifestation of your own subconscious. e.g. "Human Centipede" was your idea, as was "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo". By not being a solipsist you can blame everyone else for the shitty shit.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 03:19:04 am by Reelya »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1467 on: April 16, 2018, 03:17:17 am »

You still have to blame yourself for thinking about it, though. :P
And of course horrible shit loses its impact if you believe it's not real.
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Starver

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1468 on: April 16, 2018, 03:28:13 am »

I shall attend the Solipsist Support Group as the guest imaginary attendee. Not my own decision, obviously, but I'm sure you can imagine how useful I could be to adjudicate all inter-(/intra-?)solipsist disagreement.
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Max™

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1469 on: April 16, 2018, 03:33:22 am »

It's more fun trying to convince other people they're the only real person that exists anyways.
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