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[ChairmanPoo]

Because there arent freezers in the wild

[hector13]

You can't preserve meat as easily. If you kill a deer, chances are you're not going to be able to eat all of it before it goes bad.

There's also the issue of finding clean water - or processing the water to make it less toxic - and edible flora, which are other skills in and of themselves. And that's just to feed and water yourself, never mind sleep and clothing and shit.

It's possible, yes, but only if you know what you're doing.

[uber pye]

Because there arent freezers in the wild

that depends entirely how north you are. like in the far north of Canada, the world is your freezer! they put things in refrigerators so they don't freeze up there!

[ChairmanPoo]

. And that's just to feed and water yourself, never mind sleep and clothing and shit.

To be fair, shit is the easiest part. Anyone can do that provided enough diet fiber

[hector13]

. And that's just to feed and water yourself, never mind sleep and clothing and shit.

To be fair, shit is the easiest part. Anyone can do that provided enough diet fiber

I guess that'd be part of the flora knowledge, unless they also knew where to find water filled with bacteria that makes them poop. I can't imagine the latter would be a good idea though.

[Rolan7]

These survivalists who manage to spend nothing on food and water aren't "hyper efficient", just isolated.  Most people contribute to the nation.  These people waste their time privately sourcing things that are usually mass produced, because they think flouride's controlling our minds and shit.

Oftentimes they rape the commons to do so, like the militia that occupied the wildlife refuge office over poaching.  Or using our roads which they don't deign to help pay for.  Hippie communes emphasized sustainability, right-wing "survivalists" are self-centered hoarders and anarchists.

[Reelya]

Yeah, there's opportunity cost and externalities to take into account there.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So like wahhabis who say Islam needs to return to strict fundamentalist interpretations founded in arab roots who zealously practice their faith down to a T applying such standards to everyone else, so furiously pious that they'll tear down the state to make the religion gr8 again
Also they don't think being Muslim is enough, that you have to be strictly adherent. So being patriot is not enough, you must be practicing patriot

In a way, but the important similarity is that the belief becomes self-directed instead of deriving from the past, while still claiming to derive from the past. For example, all the wahhabis who want to tear down Mecca and thousands of other sites both in and out of Islam that were left in peace under Islamic governments for literal centuries.

Thus how you have people who would accept no authority besides themselves short of Mohamed coming back from the dead in a pillar of light, and how you have people who think that the most essential character of the Constitution is of a white, Christian, agrarian society and everyone else is the enemy (ironically similar to how some radical leftists think of it, now that I mention it). It avoids cognitive dissonance because it makes the authority "original" (all such figures are dead and cannot object) while condemning evidence to the contrary as corruption and only trusting in their own obviously valid original interpretation. The ideological divide by zero.

European Islamists already have combat experience, already have weapon stockpiles, trade popular support with going after soft targets (read: defenceless civilians and infrastructure) and local/elite circles of highly educated, wealthy and zealous operatives.

They're creating networks with surprising skill in some instances, but I'd contend that makes up almost all of the people who are truly able to do so. Whereas only a small fraction of the militiamen have advanced to that level, because it would be easier for them to do so. No European terrorist can walk down the street and purchase five assault rifles, ten thousand rounds of ammunition, and firing mechanism conversion kits, but an American militia can and they can do it openly.

Ah, so it's more to do with how they're a pile of kindling than an active fire. The potential is there
Yeah I can understand that, it could be pretty nerve wracking having loads of combat ready survivalists you know out there in the vast fucking wilderness Americans insanely call the countryside

I've said it before, and I've said it again: the nation most similar to America in this regard is Afghanistan. The only difference is the rule of law's stability.

I still like them more than eurojihadis. The only good thing I can say about eurojihadis is they're surprisingly normal, doing things like watch anime, complain their arab allies have stolen their shoes and have no respect for personal space or play dank vidya games. If they weren't actively in the process of ethnic cleansing or launching attacks on civilian populaces they'd be pretty indistinguishable from productive members of society

Your survivalists seem pretty distinct from productive members of society, urban and rural

You'd be surprised. You can find survivalists pretty easily in both cyber and meatspace, although the most hard of the core obviously go no-contact. Still, if you want the outer ring look no further than /k/ and Prison Planet. Or wilderness magazines without a conservationist bent.

Hyper-productive even
Like holy shit, how do you have people who are capable of spending 0 money a year on food and water

You know thinking on it, why don't you guys enlist them to teach your citizens how to be hyper-productive and shit? The US gets hit by natural disasters pretty frequently and it seems like an obvious use of guys who spend their lives preparing for disasters to teach other peeps how to not die in economic collapses, natural disasters or an invasion from Britain

They're hyper-productive: at survival in the wilderness. But that doesn't really help the majority of America living in or around cities, and even some militias aren't survivalists. The ones who do their own bootleg border patrols aren't, for example. More importantly, you can probably find better disaster training from people who aren't decently likely to be white nationalists. And by that I don't mean "voted for Trump", I mean "secure a white society for our white children"-tier.

Also lmao

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) in their "If You See Something, Say Something" campaign says that "the public should report only suspicious behavior and situations...rather than beliefs, thoughts, ideas, expressions, associations, or speech...". However, it is alleged that a DHS list of the characteristics of potential domestic terrorists used in law enforcement training includes "Survivalist literature (fictional books such as Patriots and One Second After are mentioned by name)", "Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)", and "Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism

Self-sufficiency and insurance against economic collapse are things everyone should have by standard, it's insane that they'd consider that terrorism when every other nation struggles to get its citizens to take up these values. Gold and barter items are situational though, though I can say toilet paper is useful and valuable wherever you are in the world.

I'm no HomeSec apologist, but there is some coded language going on here. Self-sufficency in this level only has the goal of becoming separated from the rest of America, probably because you mean it's due for destruction by God/the UN/the government. The "fear of economic collapse" is a more particular thing, going back to the history of the modern militias. It's become one of their standard lines that the US was finally fully derailed from "the Founder's intentions" when the gold standard ended under Nixon. Going back even further, there was a point in time where it was illegal for Americans to own gold, during the Great Depression. This is why you sometimes see people obsessed with gold and gold collection, as they see fiat currency as fake and only gold as legitimate. They often also see themselves as resisting taxation, which is seen as inherently unconstitutional, by doing this.

This is also where the abject hilarity of the redemption movement and other such sovereign citizen nonsense starts to intersect.

Wow, really different priorities. Anyways I heard there was all this talk about how the US army and police would rek any revolution, would the army and police have significant defections to any such militia uprising? Or is the fear that foreign agents would supply them with heavy armament

Depends on the nature of the Happening that preceded this. If the US government had genuinely gone bad I think there'd be a massive clusterfuck of people rising against them. If they were just perceived as such due to some unforeseen disaster or whatever, you might see an explosive growth to the militia movement, that's what happened in the 90s.

Unfortunately, with the probable future state of rural America's economy, they could have a wedge to get very strong indeed.

As for the "American citizens could never stand up against the American government/a foreign invader, lol cheeseburgers" thing that always comes up without fail, I again point you to Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Or any other guerilla war. There's no place where the conditions for such are more powerful than in the US. Even the people I know who hate America as is would try to resist occupiers, not that such a scenario is realistic in the first place. What it does show is the potential danger of the militias, should all that Second Republic rhetoric ever stop being for show.

[Reelya]

A friend of my mother brought over a deer's worth of meat, and it took up an entire freezer (on a duel fridge-freezer appliance). So I see no reason why somebody couldn't survive in the wild.

Well you can survive in the wild. But the population carrying capacity of a square mile of land is a lot lower that way. Nomads have had tens of thousands of years to optimize wilderness survival: they are at peak carrying capacity in the environments they occupy. Stick a basic farm plot down and you instantly multiply the population capacity by several orders of magnitude.

Sure, with guns and stuff you can take down animals faster thus accrue more nutrition than an individual nomadic tribesman could, but that doesn't get away from the basic carrying capacity problem of a square mile of wilderness. If nomads could feed a band of 100 off of some specific tract of land, there's no reason to think just having guns is going to raise the carry capacity. Nomads already optimized their population level to the most you could get away with, without degrading the food supply long-term, and I'm pretty sure they were more efficient with their energy expenditure per person than a modern survivalist would be. Also, I think the whole "untapped wilderness" thing is a modern phenomena. Until colonization, all "untapped" areas were full of nomadic indian tribes who were making optimal use of land that's not fit for farming. So the very existence of those unihabited areas right now is basically artificial. If some white guy can survive there, then there used to be an indian tribe in the area.

[Loud Whispers]

These survivalists who manage to spend nothing on food and water aren't "hyper efficient", just isolated.

If you're growing your own food and recycle everything and don't even use state electricity to the point where you're nommin on chicken and fish fed with your own hydroponics you didn't need a single penny for then yeah, you are hyper-efficient as fuck

Most people contribute to the nation.  These people waste their time privately sourcing things that are usually mass produced, because they think flouride's controlling our minds and shit.

Hahaha being self-sufficient is never a waste of time, especially since I've heard such horrid things about how the USA is a horrendously obese nation because fresh produce is unavailable for distribution. Saves money, is good practice to get into, allows you to eat fresh produce, this is basic common sense. I don't understand how anyone could be opposed to gardening and local agriculture o_O

I'm really missing something here because it's a fun thing to do and it's good for you, it is an ancient saying that the best tasting food is the one made by your hand. Look at this further; why cook, when meals are ready made and usually mass produced? Because it is cheaper, the quality is higher and the skill you practice makes you worthwhile and have fun

Oftentimes they rape the commons to do so, like the militia that occupied the wildlife refuge office over poaching.  Or using our roads which they don't deign to help pay for.

wait wat
raping the commons is an often occurrence by these peeps? Pretty sure you got em mixed with big cattle ranchers and farmers
Only thing I could find in reference was this, in which two farmers illegally shot a herd of deer on public land and then set it on fire to cover it up. They got caught and sentenced for arson then the Bundys showed up to protest even when the Hammonds said they didn't want their help. The Bundys were not occupying a refuge to secure some sort of poaching rights, they were doing it as part of their agenda to get federal land managed by states. These aren't self-sufficient survivalists, they're cattle ranchers lol

Hippie communes emphasized sustainability, right-wing "survivalists" are self-centered hoarders and anarchists.

Check the wikipedia article on survialists because we're really talking with different glasses on
In the wikipedia article it briefly mentions how the term survivalism has been incorrectly used to signify unrelated right-wing reactionary paramilitary activities, hence why you see it as a split between hippie communes and '"right-wing" "survivalists"' whilst I see it as a split between people who are useless and people who have practical skills and emergency supplies. Very basic skills like first-aid, rope work, gardening, outdoorsmanship, cooking and the pinnacle of all - firemaking, they're of massive value everywhere, anytime; great for holidays, journeys and rough times. I don't even mean disasters, I mean even just down times where food and energy prices are high lmao

As for hippy communes they only tended to emphasize smoking weed, eco villages emphasized sustainability (and maximized efficiency!). I like Eco-villages but they're in the middle of bumfuck nowhere and they cost loads of money to live in. The only things I can say about survivalism, politics and sustainability are these:
They tend to overlap between people who are individualistic and concerned with authoritarian society, given the USA's unusual FREEDOM culture I can see the overlap politics-wise since the US left is a lot more trusting of government than the US-right.

But hear me out, the values they espouse, they're common virtues across the world. Self-sufficiency, reliance, connection with nature, resilience and preparation - or to put it in more obvious terms, you're not going to hate on someone who wants to do gardening, learn first aid or preserve/prepare food
Put it another way, I live in London, a city of glass, steel, concrete and pretty stones. Electricity, free healthcare, internet and extensive transport infrastructure underpin everything I do, and it would be entirely possible for me to live my entire life to my death without ever once having dirtied my hands or left the city. I am not biased, I have no connections to survivalists, I never even knew they existed - yet still, in this urban paradise where all is provided, I developed a yearning for all these virtues. Storing food and buying in bulk made perfect sense to me, was healthier and saved money. Growing my own food and spices made perfect sense to me, was healthier, saved money and gardening is incredibly fun work. Going outdoors into the wilds, obvious enough pleasure to be surrounded by nature and to actually for once see the stars. I have no especial fondness for the woods however, as unlike the survivalists I lack any ability to navigate woods without the sun or a compass, and the UK has no sun, thus I prefer the ocean, but I'm running off the point. Self-sufficiency should be something all people should have, and since circumstances do not allow for it, it should be something all people are prepared for. It should seem obvious that being entirely dependent upon modern supply chains is retarded - multinational corporations are fickle, often prone to not caring about their consumers. Current events shake prices tremendously, and disasters do have a habit of striking. Heed my words, especially since the nation of Britain faces food price increases due to a weaker sterling!
[Yet I'm cheerful, for my rice, oat and tea has always been in the largest supply and largest store available to me ]

Look at it this another way - I was absolutely startled when one of my friends showed me how certain Americans were responding to a hurricane's aftermath. They weren't, they were completely shocked and didn't know what to do, their only recourse being to beg the US government for help or they would all die. One of the big problems with how good modern life is is it is a crutch, and if it gets taken away you need to know how to walk with just your legs. Once you can walk on your legs you can visit all over the world with competency

Like I really think when I say survivalist you're hearing scary black-and-white reports voiced over with ominous music on CNN about arsonist militias lurking out in the hills whilst I think of really cheerful people like these lot
The lifestyle is fucking awesome for you
I'm so confused why people think having useless individuals dependent on fragile institutions is a good thing, this is how you get so many dead for no reason O_o

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There's a reason why I'm insisting on "militia" instead of "survivalist". People seeking a sustainable and self-reliant lifestyle aren't survivalists in this sense.

An alternate word is "prepper", i.e. somebody preparing for an imminent apocalypse. The most survival-oriented thing about the militias is their political outlook.

[Criptfeind]

I've heard such horrid things about how the USA is a horrendously obese nation because fresh produce is unavailable for distribution.

Wait what? I've never heard this before, unless we have a different definition of fresh produce or something. America is obese because bad food is super cheap and easy, anyone can talk into a fast food store and get 1500 calories for like five bucks in two minutes. But we're not lacking fruit. Equally in grocery stores there's absolute tons of fruit all over the place. The store I go too is typically something like 25% fresh fruit and vegetables.

Maybe it varies by location...? I guess if you're living out of a gas station or something there's not going to be much fresh produce.

Edit: I'd totally believe you if you told me that Americans eat less fresh produce then average, but it doesn't seem like it's from lack of access, just lack of interest.

[Loud Whispers]

There's a reason why I'm insisting on "militia" instead of "survivalist". People seeking a sustainable and self-reliant lifestyle aren't survivalists in this sense.
An alternate word is "prepper", i.e. somebody preparing for an imminent apocalypse. The most survival-oriented thing about the militias is their political outlook.

Yeah that seems a better fit of definitions, particularly the gold-buying and bullet storing behaviours, stuff focused on economic collapse

The ideological divide by zero.

So ananchronism as religion

They're creating networks with surprising skill in some instances, but I'd contend that makes up almost all of the people who are truly able to do so. Whereas only a small fraction of the militiamen have advanced to that level, because it would be easier for them to do so. No European terrorist can walk down the street and purchase five assault rifles, ten thousand rounds of ammunition, and firing mechanism conversion kits, but an American militia can and they can do it openly.

Point of information, they are currently stockpiling explosives in Europe and for the European continent (so excluding the UK and ROI):

“They don’t have to have a big terrorist network to support them, they can go out and buy one [weapon] on the street. That is what the police in Europe are facing.”

I've said it before, and I've said it again: the nation most similar to America in this regard is Afghanistan. The only difference is the rule of law's stability.

MAGA akbar

You'd be surprised. You can find survivalists pretty easily in both cyber and meatspace, although the most hard of the core obviously go no-contact. Still, if you want the outer ring look no further than /k/ and Prison Planet. Or wilderness magazines without a conservationist bent.

/k/ has sex with guns, they're the most normal productive Americans I've ever seen before

They're hyper-productive: at survival in the wilderness. But that doesn't really help the majority of America living in or around cities, and even some militias aren't survivalists. The ones who do their own bootleg border patrols aren't, for example. More importantly, you can probably find better disaster training from people who aren't decently likely to be white nationalists. And by that I don't mean "voted for Trump", I mean "secure a white society for our white children"-tier.

Latter's a fair point if they're political extremists but even in cities, efficient planning and better ecological advancement go hand in hand. We're even trying URBAN BEEKEEPING here
First aid, carpentry, meat & fish preparation, gardening, water collection, food & water storing (in the case of water, even just storing rainwater for the purpose of gardening saves the grid valuable freshwater for example), urban animal husbandry etc there's a surprising amount of stuff you could do that would make everything more awesome

I'm no HomeSec apologist, but there is some coded language going on here. Self-sufficency in this level only has the goal of becoming separated from the rest of America, probably because you mean it's due for destruction by God/the UN/the government.

I feel like this is a case of Hitler wearing trousers because trousers are good clothes therefore we must not wear trousers

The "fear of economic collapse" is a more particular thing, going back to the history of the modern militias.

I think the 2008 doom and gloom media frenzy helped. I think the buy gold thing is ancient, going far beyond even that - I went to a museum and had a rather sensible chuckle once noting an English commentator several hundred years ago noting, in the prelude to the English civil war, that buying gold and silver was a safe measure at protecting one's wealth. Things like silver cutlery and gold jewelry are all throwbacks to the old custom of storing wealth in useful things, useful things to melt when push comes to shove.

Unfortunately, with the probable future state of rural America's economy, they could have a wedge to get very strong indeed.

I can see this being more dangerous than revolution owing to a higher likelihood than a revolution. A civil war is highly, highly unlikely in the USA, but I could definitely see something where these militias become a powerful entity within the USA being more likely (harkening back to when Trump insinuated violence if the election was rigged - is it these militias that would form the militiant arm of a demagogue? I have heard much, that this is the fear). In such an example, they wouldn't even need to fire a single shot or engage in violence, merely to pose a credible threat to apply political pressure. I believe I understand the fear now

As for the "American citizens could never stand up against the American government/a foreign invader, lol cheeseburgers" thing that always comes up without fail, I again point you to Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Or any other guerilla war. There's no place where the conditions for such are more powerful than in the US.

Sounds like good /AGG/ material

Wait what? I've never heard this before, unless we have a different definition of fresh produce or something. America is obese because bad food is super cheap and easy, anyone can talk into a fast food store and get 1500 calories for like five bucks in two minutes. But we're not lacking fruit. Equally in grocery stores there's absolute tons of fruit all over the place. The store I go too is typically something like 25% fresh fruit and vegetables.
Maybe it varies by location...? I guess if you're living out of a gas station or something there's not going to be much fresh produce.
Edit: I'd totally believe you if you told me that Americans eat less fresh produce then average, but it doesn't seem like it's from lack of access, just lack of interest.

Apparently they're called food deserts (not food desserts), places where fresh food is unavailable

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah if you're scared of your militias you're more than welcome to swap them for Europe's terrorists, your guys sound jolly in comparison, they don't even kill people

Like all they do is buy gold and corn syrup free non-GMO produce

Isn't the optimal scenario that the two deal with each other? I mean, hell, I'm pretty sure the militias would act as domestic counter-terror organizations if we wanted to try to get them to be. Foreign invaders are basically their wet dream.

[Loud Whispers]

Isn't the optimal scenario that the two deal with each other? I mean, hell, I'm pretty sure the militias would act as domestic counter-terror organizations if we wanted to try to get them to be. Foreign invaders are basically their wet dream.

Sadly they don't occupy the same social environments. Eurojihadis stick to massive cities where they can better be lost in a sea of people (and to better have targets), Snekmilitias stick to rough peripheries where they can better be lost in a sea of trees (and to better not be a target). That would make a sick survival game though, where you play as a civilian trying to keep their job and life together in a city under Eurojihadi occupation, but if you flee too far away from them into the wilds, /k/ begins hunting you for your meat and tendons; thus you must walk a tightrope whilst looking at the proverbial rock and hard place

*EDIT
On review, if I had to choose between eurojihadi occupation and being in the wilds in the dark with a /k/ommando whispering 'give me your tendons' I think I would choose the eurojihadi