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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1425480 times)

Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15360 on: December 09, 2016, 10:58:53 am »

I like how the high standard of ~communism~ nowadays is represented by the country that most recently employed concentration camps.

Because statistics comming out of dictatorships are reliable, specially one that has never allowed indepedent verification of health and social data.

Seriously though, why are all the statistics thrown around about cuba and venezuela so fancy dandy, and yet all personal accounts of every single person that escaped those regimes paint a much different picture? Cuba did flourish during the 70s and 80s because it was an important strategic point for the soviets, and thus got subsidies. When the soviet union imploded, things got real pretty damn quickly, at least if you care for actual cuban accounts, with Yoani Sánchez being one of the most popular. Cuba's magical health system has been is in a state of constant collapse since before this decade.

Hell, even Hugo Chavez died shortly after returning from getting treated in cuba, despite public announcements made by Chavez himself saying the doctors said he would make a great recovery.

Can you give an example for those fancy statistics? what were the metrics?
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15361 on: December 09, 2016, 11:10:16 am »

Quote
And god, that's not even getting into automation. How do you have positive labor without laborers? No, our economic system always gets called capitalism for convenience and indoctrination, but it completely reinvents itself every couple decades. Neoliberlaism's time has come.
Automation won't remove the low-skill service jobs for a while. The future economy will, most likely, consist of few people that can still do some work due to their extremely high professional skills, and the rest of people employed as Victorian-era-style servants catering to them. That's where the current trend goes, anyway. I've heard that personal servants are already a pretty often sight in middle-class households in Singapore and in Korea, it's only a matter of time and cultural tradition shift for it to spread into Europe and USA.

It sounds to me like what you're saying is that capitalism will fail miserably be a massive success and impoverish render irrelevant the people stuck under it.

I mean, what did you think the point of capitalism was if not to make the rich richer than god, and leave the poor to die? <futurerichperson>GOD YOU LAZY BUMS DOWN ON EARTH, SO WHINY AND ENTITLED! "WAAH WE'RE DYING DOWN HERE WAAH." GOD. YOU MAKE ME SICK. PULL YOURSELVES UP TO OUR FULLY AUTOMATED ORBITAL LUXURY COLONY BY YOUR BOOSTRAPS LIKE THE REST OF US DID!</futurerichperson>

So Elysium irl

What does a greek afterlife have to do with ... oh, that's a movie, isn't it? Maybe I should watch that at some point.
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TempAcc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15362 on: December 09, 2016, 11:50:17 am »

I like how the high standard of ~communism~ nowadays is represented by the country that most recently employed concentration camps.

Because statistics comming out of dictatorships are reliable, specially one that has never allowed indepedent verification of health and social data.

Seriously though, why are all the statistics thrown around about cuba and venezuela so fancy dandy, and yet all personal accounts of every single person that escaped those regimes paint a much different picture? Cuba did flourish during the 70s and 80s because it was an important strategic point for the soviets, and thus got subsidies. When the soviet union imploded, things got real pretty damn quickly, at least if you care for actual cuban accounts, with Yoani Sánchez being one of the most popular. Cuba's magical health system has been is in a state of constant collapse since before this decade.

Hell, even Hugo Chavez died shortly after returning from getting treated in cuba, despite public announcements made by Chavez himself saying the doctors said he would make a great recovery.

Can you give an example for those fancy statistics? what were the metrics?

I haven't been the one in this thread throwing around statistics on how the average income, social standard and healthcare in Cuba is all fine and dandy, so why are you asking me? If you want an example of the whole Cuban statistics controversy, here's a mild example. There are also accounts on the Cuban government taking heavy handed measures to mask infant mortality rates and other statistical points of study. Considering the Cuban government isn't big on transparency or independent collaboration, this makes any statistic data comming out of Cuba to be unreliable at best. Its kinda like asking a snake oil salesman about the effectiveness of his product.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15363 on: December 09, 2016, 12:14:22 pm »

Sergarr, everything about what you wrote is wrong.
What, the fact that USA is #1 country is wrong? Why, then show me who's better than USA at technology? Or, maybe you know a country whose economy is better than USA's? I desire to know who it is!

Quote
Communist countries sometime enjoyed high standard of living.

Cuba is a developped country according to standard of living index, and that's despite the US's embargo. Cuba is communism's best case scenario, with cold war ear-tech... which also showcase the issue with communism : the centralized everything tend to create totalitarian states.
If Cuba is communism's best-case scenario, then it's a failed ideology, because even now, there are still people who run away from Cuba, but there are no people who want to run into Cuba. It's not a good sign when people are escaping your country and you have to keep them there by force.

Quote
The US didn't rise to the top because they were the best at everything.
The US domination is a product of the XXem century. In WW1, the US gained a inconceivable amount of money selling weapon and supplies to the allies. At the end of the war, the allies were seriously indebted to the US, and they could get what they wanted.

At the end of WW2, the US were rich beyond imagination, had taken all the best German scientist (which were the best in the world) and the bast among them even migrated before the war because an huge number of the History's best scientist were German jews, (Von Neumann, Einstein,  Weyl, Max Born...). The Dollars became the world's reserve currency and it became the leader of a group that included every richest nation on earth.


In addition to that the country have a low population compared to his size, and thus huge natural resources, and a very defensible position.


Finally it defend big business's interest so have the support of industrialist world-wide, and they tend to be richer than the oppressed masses.
So, what you're saying is that they are the best at everything. If you look at Europe as a whole, it has an even better situation - yet, it is Europe that ended up in pointless bloody wars with itself. Why is it that United States, despite explicitly consisting of 50 semi-sovereign states, has only gone to war with itself once, in American Civil War? It's because Americans - the ones that created the country - were smart enough to produce absolutely the best government system in the world, that kept vastly different people who immigrated there all united and devoted to America as a whole!

I mean, it's easy to believe that they were just given this huge wealth, if you treat wars like natural disasters that "just happen". But if you see wars as a failures of the societies in question to resolve their problems peacefully, then USA has absolutely earned it, by nearly-religiously maintaining their political system throughout hundreds of years, while Europeans continued to fuck around with stupid shit like "monarchy", "communism", "fascism" and "communism", constantly forgetting that they're all a part of the single cultural block and instead preferring to focus on differences between each other.

Quote
However, the US's own population's living condition are rather poor : Access and the quality of education and health-care is low for a developed nation. Infant mortality is high, worker's right are very low compared to any other industrialized nations, Median wage is low, especially compared to average wage, public services such as public transport are all but non-existent, incarceration rate is the highest in the world, democracy is almost non existent, policing is appealingly violent,...
If you take Europe as a whole, and not just the "UK, Germany, France" triangle, together with Eastern Europe, you would see that it's pretty much the same, only probably even worse. USA is a union of 50 semi-sovereign states across the entire continent, it's only natural that there would be quite a few semi-failed ones within it.

But you know what? That didn't prevent USA from being #1, at all, as well as powering the economical, technological and social growth of the entire world. It's a part of the whole "left vs right" trade-off, where either you spend wealth now to make yourself feel better, or you put it into capital to make more wealth later, for future generations to come. And USA has clearly chosen the latter one, which is, well, the reason why they're supreme now.

And, in a sense, USA is the world's #1 martyr, sacrificing the well-being of its own citizens now in order to increase the well-being of all citizens in the world in the future. They do with their capitalism what communism only proclaimed to do. I assume you're American, so you should feel proud of your country being so devoted to making the whole world a better place ;_;

Fortunately, the better parts of capitalistic countries have been engaged with doing wealth rebalancing thing for quite a while now (if only to suppress the communist movements), so it should not be that hard to implement them (IIRC Finland is about to test the basic income program), at least for countries not stuck with pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers, i.e. most Western countries, with the exception of USA.
pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers

Jesus H. Christ, what happened to you, Sergarr? Such amount of moralizing would make both Bush Jr. and Reagan sick!  :P

P.S. To me, the words "pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers" look just as bombastic as "fully automated luxury gay space communism"
Hey, the only thing I'm doing is taking all that Western mainstream and slightly-less-mainstream-but-still-pro-liberal media has said in election season at face value. I'm not just inventing it from thin air, you know, I'm only repeating what the other people, who've proclaimed themselves the ultimate arbiters of goodness/liberalism and living avatars of truth/liberty, have said, so if you have problems with them, it's them and their self-asserted values that you need to question.

pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers

Trump hasn't actually done anything yet that would label him as a warmonger.
I'm talking about Republicans as a whole, you doof. They've done plenty of things that would label them as warmongers.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15364 on: December 09, 2016, 01:36:15 pm »

I like how the high standard of ~communism~ nowadays is represented by the country that most recently employed concentration camps.

Because statistics comming out of dictatorships are reliable, specially one that has never allowed indepedent verification of health and social data.

Seriously though, why are all the statistics thrown around about cuba and venezuela so fancy dandy, and yet all personal accounts of every single person that escaped those regimes paint a much different picture? Cuba did flourish during the 70s and 80s because it was an important strategic point for the soviets, and thus got subsidies. When the soviet union imploded, things got real pretty damn quickly, at least if you care for actual cuban accounts, with Yoani Sánchez being one of the most popular. Cuba's magical health system has been is in a state of constant collapse since before this decade.


Because Cuba isn't north Corea, European countries have diplomatic relation and can send observers pretty easily.

Venezuela is dead, and I didn't downplay the danger and defect of communists regimes : they are perfect breeding ground for human right abuse, and the state's ability to implement radical reform is a well documented double-edged sword. Actually a radioactive, poisonous, flammable and possibly explosive double edged sword given some of the well know results of some of those policies.


But it's important to take the actual lesson of history, and not just to swallow propaganda.

the Venezuelan government are pretty low on HR abuses compared to current US allies in the region:

https://www.hrw.org/americas/brazil
https://www.hrw.org/americas/colombia
https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

e.g. even human rights watch doesn't even hint at anyone being killed for political reasons in Venezuela. And HR Watch is a right-wing American-backed NGO which was founded as a specifically anti-leftist organization.

 also check World Bank stats, wealth per capita (GDP or PPP) is lower in Brazil and Colombia than Venezuela. Don't always believe your domestic media about which are the good and bad countries to live in. Also, anecdotes aren't trustworthy when the media organizations who push those anecdotes are constantly caught lying about related stats.  See the Latin American politics thread if you want to discuss this further: e.g. Cato institute (a right-wing American think tank) calculates Venezuelan inflation at 55% using quality measurements - effective US dollar exchange rates (52% was the average inflation for the 10 years before Chavez), whereas the IMF is pushing a figure to the media of 2000% with absolutely no empirical reasoning behind it. Guess which figure the media is hyping?

Yeah, so some "anecdotes" claim Venezuela are a massive human rights abuser? But not according to any major group who actually track human-rights abuses. Also "escaped" from Venezuela? It's parliamentary democracy, people can come and go as they please. If you believe otherwise, then perhaps your sources are actually propaganda that's indoctrinated you to believe that.

There's some police issues at the local level, but most mayors and governors are actually from the right wing parties, such as Antonio Ledezma who is the mayor of Caracas (and thus controls the police in the capital city), and from a Far-Right party. It's a federal system, whoever is the president doesn't mean they control all levels of government, or the police, who are run at the state and city level. notably, Ledezma was arrested for "unknown" reasons. But he just happened to sign a pro-coup document just prior to a coup attempt. If you go around signing onto coup attempts then you should expect to get arrested when the coup fails. That's just how normal governments do things.

 About the worst thing about the federal government HRW says is that you might get prosecuted if you cause trouble for the government there (even for trying to kill elected officials: they don't have the death penalty, nor do people get "disappeared"). Whoop-de-doo, when their nearest comparable neighbors are conducting murders and torture.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 01:59:01 pm by Reelya »
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martinuzz

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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15366 on: December 09, 2016, 04:06:38 pm »

...Didn't he already say that "Russian hacking didn't affect the election result"? Why would he order an investigation in that case?
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15367 on: December 09, 2016, 04:10:06 pm »

...Didn't he already say that "Russian hacking didn't affect the election result"? Why would he order an investigation in that case?
I don't think he did. Trump did say that though.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

penguinofhonor

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15368 on: December 09, 2016, 04:27:38 pm »

Even if he did say that, would that necessarily mean it's not worth investigating? If Russia meddled in the election and failed to significantly change the results, do we have to wait for them to succeed before we look into it?
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15369 on: December 09, 2016, 04:34:54 pm »

...Didn't he already say that "Russian hacking didn't affect the election result"? Why would he order an investigation in that case?
I don't think he did. Trump did say that though.

Obama's been under pressure to declassify and release what they did find about Russian meddling and possible connections to the Trump campaign.

Also, not-paywalled sources:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/obama-orders-full-review-of-election-relate-hacking-232419

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/politics/obama-orders-review-into-russian-hacking-of-2016-election/index.html
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15370 on: December 09, 2016, 05:19:43 pm »

...Didn't he already say that "Russian hacking didn't affect the election result"? Why would he order an investigation in that case?
I don't think he did. Trump did say that though.

Obama's been under pressure to declassify and release what they did find about Russian meddling and possible connections to the Trump campaign.

Also, not-paywalled sources:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/obama-orders-full-review-of-election-relate-hacking-232419

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/politics/obama-orders-review-into-russian-hacking-of-2016-election/index.html
Huh? Is the washington post link I gave paywalled for you? It isn't for me.. Maybe they only paywall inside the US for tax and legal reasons then (I guess I could imagine that if the fees from abroad conscriptions are not enough to cover the fees for lawyers and accountants to deal with legal and tax issues of doing business abroad, a news company might decide to just pass on the news for free, from a journalist's ideological perspective called freedom of information)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:23:44 pm by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15371 on: December 09, 2016, 06:26:54 pm »

...Didn't he already say that "Russian hacking didn't affect the election result"? Why would he order an investigation in that case?
I don't think he did. Trump did say that though.

Obama's been under pressure to declassify and release what they did find about Russian meddling and possible connections to the Trump campaign.

Also, not-paywalled sources:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/obama-orders-full-review-of-election-relate-hacking-232419

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/09/politics/obama-orders-review-into-russian-hacking-of-2016-election/index.html
Huh? Is the washington post link I gave paywalled for you? It isn't for me.. Maybe they only paywall inside the US for tax and legal reasons then ([EPILEPTIC TREES])

It isn't paywalled for me and I'm in the USA. :P
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15372 on: December 09, 2016, 06:35:27 pm »

Sergarr...

Sergarr, everything about what you wrote is wrong.
What, the fact that USA is #1 country is wrong? Why, then show me who's better than USA at technology? Or, maybe you know a country whose economy is better than USA's? I desire to know who it is!
He was being a bit overdramatic. He meant that basically everything you said was wrong.
Quote
Quote
Communist countries sometime enjoyed high standard of living.

Cuba is a developped country according to standard of living index, and that's despite the US's embargo. Cuba is communism's best case scenario, with cold war ear-tech... which also showcase the issue with communism : the centralized everything tend to create totalitarian states.
If Cuba is communism's best-case scenario, then it's a failed ideology, because even now, there are still people who run away from Cuba, but there are no people who want to run into Cuba. It's not a good sign when people are escaping your country and you have to keep them there by force.
Best-case by some measures, not by all. And "best-case" in the realistic sense, not the "pie in the sky" ideas like "everybody has the right to life and happiness" or shit like that.
Quote
Quote
The US didn't rise to the top because they were the best at everything.
The US domination is a product of the XXem century. In WW1, the US gained a inconceivable amount of money selling weapon and supplies to the allies. At the end of the war, the allies were seriously indebted to the US, and they could get what they wanted.

At the end of WW2, the US were rich beyond imagination, had taken all the best German scientist (which were the best in the world) and the bast among them even migrated before the war because an huge number of the History's best scientist were German jews, (Von Neumann, Einstein,  Weyl, Max Born...). The Dollars became the world's reserve currency and it became the leader of a group that included every richest nation on earth.


In addition to that the country have a low population compared to his size, and thus huge natural resources, and a very defensible position.


Finally it defend big business's interest so have the support of industrialist world-wide, and they tend to be richer than the oppressed masses.
So, what you're saying is that they are the best at everything.
The best at
1. Letting big business fuck everybody else over
2. Having lots of resources
3. Having a low population density
4. Letting German scientists in
5. Staying out of fights, which is easy when they aren't in your background
6. War profiteering
Quote
If you look at Europe as a whole, it has an even better situation - yet, it is Europe that ended up in pointless bloody wars with itself.
That's probably because it's older and more dense.
Quote
Why is it that United States, despite explicitly consisting of 50 semi-sovereign states, has only gone to war with itself once, in American Civil War?
Probably because, unlike Europe, it's a single country! *heh*
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It's because Americans - the ones that created the country - were smart enough to produce absolutely the best government system in the world, that kept vastly different people who immigrated there all united and devoted to America as a whole!
**vibrates angrily**
GRHSHRHBRSHRS

Turn off the MURRICA NUMBER ONE please, how exactly is it "best" anyway, how do you measure that
Quote
I mean, it's easy to believe that they were just given this huge wealth
yep, coincidence and arseholiness gets you everything in life
Quote
if you treat wars like natural disasters that "just happen". But if you see wars as a failures of the societies in question to resolve their problems peacefully, then USA has absolutely earned it, by nearly-religiously maintaining their political system throughout hundreds of years
CONSERVATIVE, CAST THEM OUT, CAST THEM OUT, CHANGE IS GOOD

Saying that it is impossible to improve upon what we have is snobbery of the highest order, btw.
Quote
while Europeans continued to fuck around with stupid shit like "monarchy", "communism", "fascism" and "communism"
♪One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong♫

For that matter, that's three things - one of them already existed, and wasn't a change, one of them wasn't "stupid shit" and only went wrong because it coincided with an authoritarian government, and the other is evil. (In order as given.)
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constantly forgetting that they're all a part of the single cultural block and instead preferring to focus on differences between each other.
Nonono, WWI happened because of land disputes, tension, and economic rivalries.
Quote
Quote
However, the US's own population's living condition are rather poor : Access and the quality of education and health-care is low for a developed nation. Infant mortality is high, worker's right are very low compared to any other industrialized nations, Median wage is low, especially compared to average wage, public services such as public transport are all but non-existent, incarceration rate is the highest in the world, democracy is almost non existent, policing is appealingly violent,...
If you take Europe as a whole, and not just the "UK, Germany, France" triangle, together with Eastern Europe, you would see that it's pretty much the same, only probably even worse. USA is a union of 50 semi-sovereign states across the entire continent, it's only natural that there would be quite a few semi-failed ones within it.
...not really, it's a country for most intents and purposes.
Quote
But you know what? That didn't prevent USA from being #1, at all, as well as powering the economical, technological and social growth of the entire world. It's a part of the whole "left vs right" trade-off, where either you spend wealth now to make yourself feel better, or you put it into capital to make more wealth later, for future generations to come. And USA has clearly chosen the latter one, which is, well, the reason why they're supreme now.
ARGLE BARGLE

No, no, no, no, no, that's not the core LvR thing, especially not now. Right is "let's give tax breaks to the rich, spend money on WAAAAAAGH" and left is "let's spend money on good shit". And right being about "saving" and "preserving for future generations," haha, pollution EPA climate change and this


LOL
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And, in a sense, USA is the world's #1 martyr, sacrificing the well-being of its own citizens now in order to increase the well-being of all citizens in the world in the future.
BWAHAHAHAHA-

wait, you're serious

"Let's let companies fuck everyone else over"
"What a martyr"
Guess what, the "martyrs" never decided to "let this happen to them," it's oppression and you're painting it as "oh those brave people sacrificing themselves," haha no
Quote
They do with their capitalism what communism only proclaimed to do. I assume you're American, so you should feel proud of your country being so devoted to making the whole world a better place ;_;
AS THE ICE MELTS

AND THE BOMBS FALL

THANKS AMERICA

FOR IT ALL
Quote
Fortunately, the better parts of capitalistic countries have been engaged with doing wealth rebalancing thing for quite a while now (if only to suppress the communist movements), so it should not be that hard to implement them (IIRC Finland is about to test the basic income program), at least for countries not stuck with pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers, i.e. most Western countries, with the exception of USA.
pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers

Jesus H. Christ, what happened to you, Sergarr? Such amount of moralizing would make both Bush Jr. and Reagan sick!  :P

P.S. To me, the words "pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers" look just as bombastic as "fully automated luxury gay space communism"
Hey, the only thing I'm doing is taking all that Western mainstream and slightly-less-mainstream-but-still-pro-liberal media has said in election season at face value. I'm not just inventing it from thin air, you know, I'm only repeating what the other people, who've proclaimed themselves the ultimate arbiters of goodness/liberalism and living avatars of truth/liberty, have said, so if you have problems with them, it's them and their self-asserted values that you need to question.
It's their fault you're repeating what the media says, yeeeeeeep
Quote
pure evil pro-Putinist pro-corporatist fundamental-religious right-wing warmongers

Trump hasn't actually done anything yet that would label him as a warmonger.
I'm talking about Republicans as a whole, you doof. They've done plenty of things that would label them as warmongers.
definitely, such agreement, much indeed, wow
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Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15373 on: December 09, 2016, 06:56:43 pm »


HR Watch is a right-wing American-backed NGO
No it's not.
also check World Bank stats, wealth per capita (GDP or PPP) is lower in Brazil and Colombia than Venezuela.

I am not sure that it's a valid comparison. i can understand the reason for wanting to compare neighbouring countries, but in doing so we risk neglecting a major factor like oil.

Chavez economic "success" is directly linked to the rise in oil prices and nothing more. he didn't even manage to capitalize on oil revenue to ramp up additional oil revenue.

I wonder what would happen if we took Colombia's and Venezuela's oil production figures and switched them around. this would be unfair to Colombia, since they could have taken past oil revenues and invest it back in their economy, but even that simple calculation reveals that Colombia's GDP per capita PPP would be higher than Venezuela's even if you just keep Venezuela at Colombia's oil production rates and don't change Colombia to Venezuela's.

That said, the PPP metric in Venezuela is too skewed to be seriously taken into account since it's nigh impossible to compare a basket of goods that is greatly affected by fuel at 1 cent/litre.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15374 on: December 09, 2016, 07:25:36 pm »

@martinuzz and shadowlord: it was more 'links that won't paywall you after you read a certain number of articles on the site.

@doze: I did think sergarr was referring to Trump, but yes, as far as the Republicans go, I do agree with those labels. Democrats haven't been completely free of the warmonger label, but the Republicans pretty much chomp at the bit when it comes to Pax Americana Imperium and 'interventioning'.

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