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[Reelya]

yeah, child labor can be pretty shitii. On the other hand though, (read: if they do it right) it would allow more high schooler to get cash and work experience earlier, so less would go in to dept come college and they could be more hire-able right out of high school.

That's not how it works. The whole point of child labor is that it's below minimum wage. That's the point. You can't save for college while working even at minimum wage, let alone half minimum wage.

The average student debt at graduation is now 2-3 times the median wealth of Americans. Say the cost of a degree is $100,000. To pay for that at $3/hour, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, would take 17 years. To give a concrete figure: 43 million Americans hold $1.23 trillion in student debt.

Also, look into those private for-profit colleges, such as the Romney family's Full Sail University. They rely excessively on federal student loans compared to non-profit universities, and have much lower graduation rates, and lower rates of their degrees being accepted as valid by third-parties. Basically, these sorts of companies exist solely to bilk the nation and students who didn't get into more prestigious college, by encouraging them to max. out their student debt.
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/college-game-plan/graduation-odds-students-who-get-fed-loans-private-college-just-n584681

More entertaining take from John Oliver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pjd1QEA0c

[smjjames]

So Betsy Devos, new secretary of education wants to abolish public schools, and has a right-wing foundation she funds, who wrote an article originally entitled "bring back child labor work is a gift our kids can handle". the first part of the title has been redacted but lives on in the URL:
http://blog.acton.org/archives/89837-bring-back-child-labor-work-is-a-gift-our-kids-can-handle.html

You can talk about the dangers of coal mining or selling newspapers on the street. But let’s not pretend that danger is something that every young teen wants to avoid. If you doubt it, head over the stadium for the middle school football game in your local community, or have a look at the wrestling or gymnastic team’s antics at the gym.

You heard it here: the sec. of education funds a group that promotes sending kiddies down the coal mine. Because hey, if they can be a linebacker, surely we can send them to the coal face for $3 an hour?

yeah, child labor can be pretty shitii. On the other hand though, (read: if they do it right) it would allow more high schooler to get cash and work experience earlier, so less would go in to dept come college and they could be more hire-able right out of high school.

That's not how it works. The whole point of child labor is that it's below minimum wage. That's the point. You can't save for college while working even at minimum wage, let alone half minimum wage.

And again, child labor laws.....

Some sort of thing like 'work with a miner for a day' to see what they do would probably be fine, as long as they're safe obviously. Then again, a mine isn't a particularly safe place anyway.

[TheBiggerFish]

And I thought it couldn't possibly be any worse.

Nope, child labor!

[Reelya]

Back on the "private" colleges, they apparently account for 1 in 8 students, but 1 in 3 student debt dollars. They really are degree-mills who's entire business plan is bilking the federal education system of every penny they can get away with. And they constantly pressure students to max out their loans from what I've heard.

It's somewhere been an education and Scientology, really. Which is fitting in that Mitt Romney's family owns one: Full Sail University. Which is a degree-mill bilking students and the taxpayer of every cent. Romney tried to sell it as the model university during the 2012 elections. In fact, it's the 3rd-most expensive college in America. which shows you what to expect from Republican higher education policy:
https://www.republicreport.org/2012/new-facts-mitt-romneys-favorite-college-3rd-expensive-college-america-gives-politicians-especially-romney-money/

[Neonivek]

Ok seriously... SERIOUSLY

I say I kind of want Trump to win to sort of teach the USA a lesson... and BOOM it happened.

Then I said I kind of want Trump not to do a good or mediocre job but to do a disastrous job to also teach the USA a lesson... and OHHHH boy are we on route.

When the heck has the USA been beholden to my darker impulses?

[Rockphed]

So Betsy Devos, new secretary of education wants to abolish public schools, and has a right-wing foundation she funds, who wrote an article originally entitled "bring back child labor work is a gift our kids can handle". the first part of the title has been redacted but lives on in the URL:
http://blog.acton.org/archives/89837-bring-back-child-labor-work-is-a-gift-our-kids-can-handle.html

You can talk about the dangers of coal mining or selling newspapers on the street. But let’s not pretend that danger is something that every young teen wants to avoid. If you doubt it, head over the stadium for the middle school football game in your local community, or have a look at the wrestling or gymnastic team’s antics at the gym.

You heard it here: the sec. of education funds a group that promotes sending kiddies down the coal mine. They're writing about this as if a child who's sent to a coal mine is making an informed choice about the dangers vs rewards, and that this is equivalent to the risk/reward in school sports. Goddamn crazy stuff.

First, I suppose that in due diligence it must be said that the author doesn't want to send eight-year-olds into coal mines. Older children and aluminum mines, sure.

There is no argument in the piece that this would be of any benefit to anyone besides the people who employ them, however. It certainly wouldn't be good for the job market. It would be horrible for education. Oh, and who in the entire United States is hiring people with a 12th-grade education for anything other than picking crops? Is there even a single job?

What problem do they think they're solving?

I worked with lots of people whose formal education stopped at or before 12th grade.  Some of them had taken training of one sort of another, but many of them were self taught.  There are plenty of jobs for people willing to get their hands and pants dirty.

Sending kids into mines and factories for a day, or even a week, is not about child labor, but about exposing children to pathways that don't involve getting $100,000 into debt.

[Reelya]

That's kind of a false dichotomy there. There are plenty of job opportunities already for teens that don't involve either dangerous work environments or debt. And send masses of students for "1 week of working at a mine" or factory sounds like it would be counter-productive (literally). Mining involves so many safety considerations etc, that herding tons of teens sounds like it would cost a lot of money. Mining is just not the sort of job where it's effective any more to throw untrained labor at it, without expecting disaster to accrue. I'd argue that factory work is like that, too, since any sort of decent factory is so heavily automated and has such high levels of safety regulations that go along with it. Kids would be better off doing some sort of piecework on commission.

EDIT: Also, good one Trump. If you disrespect the flag you should go to prison for a year, or lose citizenship. But what would that make you, if you're now a citizen of nowhere?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/803567993036754944?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

However, some context here: Hillary also wanted to imprison flag-burners in a bill she co-sponsored. Both sides are flag-Nazis. Trump just needed to go the extra step with "lose citizenship" to out-do Hillary.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/07/opinion/senator-clinton-in-pander-mode.html

[PTTG??]

....What problem do they think they're solving?

I worked with lots of people whose formal education stopped at or before 12th grade.  Some of them had taken training of one sort of another, but many of them were self taught.  There are plenty of jobs for people willing to get their hands and pants dirty.

Sending kids into mines and factories for a day, or even a week, is not about child labor, but about exposing children to pathways that don't involve getting $100,000 into debt.

1: This is clearly not about "getting kids interested in the trades." It's not about working for a week. It's about full-on child labor.
2: The next ten or twenty years is going to involve a lot fewer low-education jobs, not more.
3: Not all education requires debt.
4: Just because education is expensive doesn't mean it's bad.
5: Educated people work hard. Medicine is a dirty job.
6: Maybe the problem is that we need to prepare people for the jobs that will be available, not pretend that what worked in 1950 will work 70 years later.

[Rockphed]

That's kind of a false dichotomy there. There are plenty of job opportunities already for teens that don't involve either dangerous work environments or debt. And send masses of students for "1 week of working at a mine" or factory sounds like it would be counter-productive (literally). Mining involves so many safety considerations etc, that herding tons of teens sounds like it would cost a lot of money. Mining is just not the sort of job where it's effective any more to throw untrained labor at it, without expecting disaster to accrue. I'd argue that factory work is like that, too, since any sort of decent factory is so heavily automated and has such high levels of safety regulations that go along with it. Kids would be better off doing some sort of piecework on commission.

EDIT: Also, good one Trump. If you disrespect the flag you should go to prison for a year, or lose citizenship. But what would that make you, if you're now a citizen of nowhere?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/803567993036754944?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

However, some context here: Hillary also wanted to imprison flag-burners in a bill she co-sponsored. Both sides are flag-Nazis. Trump just needed to go the extra step with "lose citizenship" to out-do Hillary.

The safety regulations to be safe in a factory take about 15 minutes to learn.  They pretty much amount to "Don't walk under things that are moving.  Don't hop fences that are taller than your knees.  Don't open panels unless you are trained to do so.  Wear appropriate PPE.  Don't look into the weld flash."

And yeah, trying to get productive work out of untrained high-school students is a fool's errand.  Doing so in a mildly dangerous environment is even worse.  I was just trying to put a positive spin on things.

[Neonivek]

Seriously I find this flag-burning stuff to be total nonsense.

Yeah it is totally disrespectful but didn't most of us grow up learning not to pick fights with people just because they insult your mother?

[martinuzz]

Trump might have to convince his wife and son to come live in the White House after all to avoid lawsuit.
Jeweler Tiffany, situated next to Trump Tower has filed a complaint about losing customers, because it's store has become neigh unreachable for customers because of increased protection to Trump Tower.

[Phmcw]

Annnd Trump fill his administration with lobbyists.

His fanboys will double down, but disappointment will kick in with the rest of his supporters.

[Reelya]

The safety regulations to be safe in a factory take about 15 minutes to learn.  They pretty much amount to "Don't walk under things that are moving.  Don't hop fences that are taller than your knees.  Don't open panels unless you are trained to do so.  Wear appropriate PPE.  Don't look into the weld flash.

This is just dumb now. Safety regs are much more costly than you're making out. If a company screws up, that could cost millions - fines, lawsuits, PR problems etc. "15 minutes to learn" all the safety protocls is bullshit that only someone who has no idea of the liabilities real companies face could spout. Even without government regulations there's insurance to worry about. Those insurance guys are like hawks. Doing something silly like having teens working in a factory for 1 week after watching a 15 minute safety video is going to fuck with your insurance premiums like nothing else. At the very least, you'd need babysitters with the teens at all times, defeating the purpose of having them there. teens goof off. They're going to fuck up, and watching a 15 minute safety awareness video isn't going to turn them into adults who don't need constant supervision. (and someone will fuck up, so even the "good" kids need to be closely supervised).

[Sergarr]

Trump might have to convince his wife and son to come live in the White House after all to avoid lawsuit.
Jeweler Tiffany, situated next to Trump Tower has filed a complaint about losing customers, because it's store has become neigh unreachable for customers because of increased protection to Trump Tower.

...why won't he just, you know, settle it, like he did with basically all other lawsuits of his?

Annnd Trump fill his administration with lobbyists.

His fanboys will double down, but disappointment will kick in with the rest of his supporters.

Yeah I think Trump has run out of my good will. 100% of which was basically gifted by Obama, and it wasn't much, but Trump has managed to do it in no time flat.

How are we supposed to control a President like Trump, whose beliefs correspond to whoever has talked to him last? Put our agents into his close social circle? I don't think they accent non-Americans there, now don't they?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The safety regulations to be safe in a factory take about 15 minutes to learn.  They pretty much amount to "Don't walk under things that are moving.  Don't hop fences that are taller than your knees.  Don't open panels unless you are trained to do so.  Wear appropriate PPE.  Don't look into the weld flash.

This is just dumb now. Safety regs are much more costly than you're making out. If a company screws up, that could cost millions - fines, lawsuits, PR problems etc. "15 minutes to learn" all the safety protocls is bullshit that only someone who has no idea of the liabilities real companies face could spout. Even without government regulations there's insurance to worry about. Those insurance guys are like hawks. Doing something silly like having teens working in a factory for 1 week after watching a 15 minute safety video is going to fuck with your insurance premiums like nothing else. At the very least, you'd need babysitters with the teens at all times, defeating the purpose of having them there. teens goof off. They're going to fuck up, and watching a 15 minute safety awareness video isn't going to turn them into adults who don't need constant supervision. (and someone will fuck up, so even the "good" kids need to be closely supervised).

If you ever want to know how well it would go over, ask a high school shop teacher. Their perpetual nervousness with their students is because they've usually seen how easy it is for even a responsible adult to just cut their fingers off in the span of a second. Most teenagers do not have enough experience with the realities of death and mutilation to truly adhere to hazardous work (nor should they).