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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412589 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14310 on: November 29, 2016, 10:50:09 am »

Germany industrial capacity was superior to France's they also had a big population and unparalleled military traditions. And it was another time too.
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it doesn't matter how much money you can throw at an arctic ship project, it's going to take a decade to complete construction of one icebreaker whilst Russia already has the world's largest fleet of icebreakers, largest and most powerful icebreaker ships and largest fleet of nuclear icebreakers.

Other countries have icebreakers if you need them now, and building a ship doesn't take ten years. I just gave a look and it took six years to the soviet to build one from start to finish (the Yamal) during the collapse. There is nothing Russia can do that NATO shouldn't be able to do better and faster.
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The EU has lost touch with reality and is actively in the process of disintegration, China is doing well and will continue to do well until its housing bubble crashes, the USA is incredibly hard to kill as its geographical position in the world is the envy of all civilization

Yeah, we'll see if you don't end the year in a civil war...
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14311 on: November 29, 2016, 10:58:17 am »

Germany industrial capacity was superior to France's they also had a big population and unparalleled military traditions. And it was another time too.
Britain had unparalleled military traditions and was literally the first nation to industrialize, having the deepest industrial traditions. Didn't mean shit because they didn't start their preparations earlier, because as it happens, time is important.

Other countries have icebreakers if you need them now, and building a ship doesn't take ten years. I just gave a look and it took six years to the soviet to build one from start to finish (the Yamal) during the collapse. There is nothing Russia can do that NATO shouldn't be able to do better and faster.
The icebreaker gap is also exposing some deeper problems that speak to the long neglect of the issue. Not only are they expensive, costing at least $1 billion each, but it would take the U.S. shipbuilding industry – which has long ceased to build icebreakers -- at least ten years to build a brand new one.
And it’s unclear who would pay for the next generation. Icebreakers are operated by the Coast Guard, but their cost falls way outside the reach of its budget. Funding them, said Zukunft, is the “billion-dollar question.”
At its height, the U.S. icebreaker fleet hovered around eight ships, comparable to that of other Arctic countries like Canada, Finland and Sweden. But the Coast Guard’s robust fleet dropped out of commission one by one, and today consists of one 40-year-old heavy icebreaker, the Polar Star, commissioned in 1976, and one medium icebreaker, the Healy, commissioned in 2000. The Polar Star’s sister ship, the Polar Sea, has been sitting in a drydock in Seattle since its engine failed in 2010.
The ships require thick steel, reinforced hulls and enormous horsepower to ram through ice. Icebreakers also have special onboard tanks and pumps that shift water from one side of the boat, rocking it to break the surrounding ice. The Coast Guard’s total budget request for fiscal 2016 is $9.96 billion; a single icebreaker would eat a tenth of the budget.
Zukunft said in order to get funding for icebreakers outside of the Coast Guard budget, the vessels would need to be seen as national assets—in the same light as aircraft carriers and nuclear ballistic submarines. “At the end of the day it really is a national asset, where it’s not just Coast Guard, it’s the National Science Foundation, the Arctic Research Council, the Department of the Interior, Transportation, Defense Department, Commerce, a number of others, that have equities in heavy icebreakers,” he said.
Alaskan senator Lisa Murkowski, who’s led the charge for new icebreakers for years, wants to see the Navy and Coast Guard partner to fund the ships. “Do you know how many naval ships we are building? A lot,” she said. “Do you know how many icebreakers we are building? None.”
But even if funding to build new icebreakers came tomorrow, it would still take too long to build one ship, analysts say. Current law requires Coast Guard vessels to be constructed in U.S. shipyards unless the President determines there’s an overriding national-security interest to build a ship outside of the U.S.
Taking it for granted that you're better than your opponents is how you find out rudely one day, you're not. The USA has numerous hurdles to cross to get a functional icebreaking fleet whilst Russia is the only nation in the world that has nuclear icebreakers. There is a considerable gap here, and a quarter of the world's gas and oil is at stake

Yeah, we'll see if you don't end the year in a civil war...
Years since last civil war:
151
America is pretty safe. The only people who'd start a civil war right now in the USA are a disarmed populace, so the doom and gloom isn't warranted.

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14312 on: November 29, 2016, 11:07:55 am »

Yeah, we'll see if you don't end the year in a civil war...
Years since last civil war:
151
America is pretty safe. The only people who'd start a civil war right now in the USA are a disarmed populace, so the doom and gloom isn't warranted.

Name one issue that we have now that is as divisive as slavery was then, that people are willing to take up arms over.

An outside view might say 'the second amendment', but we've had plenty of verbal fights and tension over it and none of it exploded into outright warfare.

Theres also the fact that there isn't any kind of sharp division as there was between the north and south.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 11:09:49 am by smjjames »
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Sprin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14313 on: November 29, 2016, 11:10:16 am »

Yeah, we'll see if you don't end the year in a civil war...
Years since last civil war:
151
America is pretty safe. The only people who'd start a civil war right now in the USA are a disarmed populace, so the doom and gloom isn't warranted.

Name one issue that we have now that is as divisive as slavery was then, that people are willing to take up arms over.

An outside view might say 'the second amendment', but we've had plenty of verbal fights and tension over it and none of it exploded into outright warfare.
No ones tried to try mass confiscation yet.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14314 on: November 29, 2016, 11:20:35 am »

Yeah, we'll see if you don't end the year in a civil war...
Years since last civil war:
151
America is pretty safe. The only people who'd start a civil war right now in the USA are a disarmed populace, so the doom and gloom isn't warranted.

Name one issue that we have now that is as divisive as slavery was then, that people are willing to take up arms over.

An outside view might say 'the second amendment', but we've had plenty of verbal fights and tension over it and none of it exploded into outright warfare.
No ones tried to try mass confiscation yet.

Because nobody's stupid enough to try something quite that drastic? At least in a way that screams 'GUN GRAB!!!1!1!!11!!' Though Trump is the right caliber of stupid and demagogue authoritarian to try it, he's completely on the side of the second amendment, for now.
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scriver

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14315 on: November 29, 2016, 11:26:05 am »

I think the ice breaker number/deficiency is a valid point, but if the USA started building up that part of their fleet again I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make deals with, say, Canada or Sweden to build them. Like you say, breakers are military vessels lastmost, and even then the US regularly outsources production of military equipment to other countries, unless I remember incorrectly? (I'm basing it mostly on half remembered info about the US working closely together with the Swedish war machine with something or other)
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14316 on: November 29, 2016, 11:38:38 am »

I think the ice breaker number/deficiency is a valid point, but if the USA started building up that part of their fleet again I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make deals with, say, Canada or Sweden to build them. Like you say, breakers are military vessels lastmost, and even then the US regularly outsources production of military equipment to other countries, unless I remember incorrectly? (I'm basing it mostly on half remembered info about the US working closely together with the Swedish war machine with something or other)

Maybe you're thinking of Cold War stuff? However, Sweden has a longstanding policy of political neutrality (not unlike Switzerland, but for different reasons), so, it would have to be Norway that builds the icebreakers.

It does make some sense to outsource the making of icebreakers to those who know how to build them. I'm sure Canada would be a willing partner and ally in securing the Arctic.
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14317 on: November 29, 2016, 11:39:09 am »

I think the ice breaker number/deficiency is a valid point, but if the USA started building up that part of their fleet again I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make deals with, say, Canada or Sweden to build them. Like you say, breakers are military vessels lastmost, and even then the US regularly outsources production of military equipment to other countries, unless I remember incorrectly? (I'm basing it mostly on half remembered info about the US working closely together with the Swedish war machine with something or other)

I'm pretty sure that we're required by law to build all of out military equipment in the US proper. A lot of our stuff is still produced by non-American companies, but the factories are physically located in the US, so outsourcing wouldn't really help here.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14318 on: November 29, 2016, 11:41:33 am »

There might not even be enough icebreakers from every other country in the world willing to join with the US to equal the number that Russia has. The only country that comes close is Canada, and Canada has only 8 diesel-electric icebreakers.
Outside of Russia and China, the world has 51 icebreakers. Russia has 74. This is going off of all icebreakers including commercial and research.
Amusingly the UK is going to have one named after the absolute don, Sir David Attenborough. It was nearly named Boaty McBoatface
It's also going to be used for the antarctic and not the arctic, which is another issue entirely

I think the ice breaker number/deficiency is a valid point, but if the USA started building up that part of their fleet again I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make deals with, say, Canada or Sweden to build them. Like you say, breakers are military vessels lastmost, and even then the US regularly outsources production of military equipment to other countries, unless I remember incorrectly? (I'm basing it mostly on half remembered info about the US working closely together with the Swedish war machine with something or other)
Yeah, the main problem is that outsourcing their construction to a foreign nation has to come from the authority of the President directly from the President, which would be an issue if the President didn't believe the arctic was warming and thus no icebreakers are needed

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14319 on: November 29, 2016, 11:44:57 am »

I think the ice breaker number/deficiency is a valid point, but if the USA started building up that part of their fleet again I don't see why they wouldn't be able to make deals with, say, Canada or Sweden to build them. Like you say, breakers are military vessels lastmost, and even then the US regularly outsources production of military equipment to other countries, unless I remember incorrectly? (I'm basing it mostly on half remembered info about the US working closely together with the Swedish war machine with something or other)

I'm pretty sure that we're required by law to build all of out military equipment in the US proper. A lot of our stuff is still produced by non-American companies, but the factories are physically located in the US, so outsourcing wouldn't really help here.

nvm what I said in my previous post then.

We actually used to have 9 icebreakers that were built during WWII or shortly after, but they were all decommissioned decades ago.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 11:56:31 am by smjjames »
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14320 on: November 29, 2016, 12:05:09 pm »

Doesn't Aperture have one we could use? The Borealis, right?
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14321 on: November 29, 2016, 12:06:35 pm »

The USA needs to have a concerted arctic policy that outlasts its presidents to compete
Trump's whole plan behind denying climate change and withdrawing funds is to melt the icecaps so Russia's arctic fleet becomes useless.
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Sprin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14322 on: November 29, 2016, 12:08:24 pm »

.

No ones tried to try mass confiscation yet.

Because nobody's stupid enough to try something quite that drastic? At least in a way that screams 'GUN GRAB!!!1!1!!11!!' Though Trump is the right caliber of stupid and demagogue authoritarian to try it, he's completely on the side of the second amendment, for now.
He wants universal conceal carried and (at least when I checked) actual automatic rifles. So pretty pro 2A which would come in handy assuming he is the "right caliber of stupid and demagogue authoritarian" you think he is. >_>
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 12:11:13 pm by Sprin »
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14323 on: November 29, 2016, 12:08:52 pm »

There might not even be enough icebreakers from every other country in the world willing to join with the US to equal the number that Russia has. The only country that comes close is Canada, and Canada has only 8 diesel-electric icebreakers.
Outside of Russia and China, the world has 51 icebreakers. Russia has 74. This is going off of all icebreakers including commercial and research.
Amusingly the UK is going to have one named after the absolute don, Sir David Attenborough. It was nearly named Boaty McBoatface
It's also going to be used for the antarctic and not the arctic, which is another issue entirely

Isnt that the one that was almost named Blas de Lezo after a mass internet trolling attempt until the British navy banned it?
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14324 on: November 29, 2016, 12:17:18 pm »

.

No ones tried to try mass confiscation yet.

Because nobody's stupid enough to try something quite that drastic? At least in a way that screams 'GUN GRAB!!!1!1!!11!!' Though Trump is the right caliber of stupid and demagogue authoritarian to try it, he's completely on the side of the second amendment, for now.
He wants universal conceal carried and (at least when I checked) actual automatic rifles. So pretty pro 2A which would come in handy assuming he is the "right caliber of stupid and demagogue authoritarian" you think he is. >_>

I know he is completely pro second amendment, I'm just saying that he is the type of person that might actually go and do it if he were against guns. And considering how much he has flip flopped, theres no guarantee that he won't flip on the issue someday.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 12:20:23 pm by smjjames »
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