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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1389436 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12375 on: November 13, 2016, 07:15:14 pm »

Speaking of farming subsidies, didn't one of the Republican candidates say that they'd get rid of farming subsidies? May have been Trump, but I forget which one it actually was.
Isn't that literally how you tick off a lot of your base as a Republican?  Huh.

May have been Carson actually. I just remember someone saying that during the debates or at some point.
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12376 on: November 13, 2016, 07:16:32 pm »

Heh, Priebus as Chief of Staff? I can only imagine the CIA and FBI directors having walked hand in hand up to Trump and said "if you make Bannon Chief of Staff we'll kill you, mkay?".

As for his fossil fuel idea, it has earned him the new name of Chief Shitting Bull
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12377 on: November 13, 2016, 07:18:30 pm »

Heh, Priebus as Chief of Staff? I can only imagine the CIA and FBI directors having walked hand in hand up to Trump and said "if you make Bannon Chief of Staff we'll kill you, mkay?".

As for his fossil fuel idea, it has earned him the new name of Chief Shitting Bull

Pfft, he earned that name long ago.

And lets not defile the real Chief Sitting Bull.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12378 on: November 13, 2016, 07:24:10 pm »

Hell, maybe it's a job generating plan. If ten or fifteen percent of the country dies due to polluted infrastructure, that means the jobs they used to hold are now available! Plus think of all the new opportunities in healthcare and funerary services.

E: Though in retrospect, any plan pitch that ends in "think of all the new opportunities in healthcare and funerary services" is probably a pretty bad one.

Not so! You just aren't thinking dwarvenly enough. REMEMBER THE DOOMFORESTS!
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12379 on: November 13, 2016, 07:24:56 pm »

Speaking of farming subsidies, didn't one of the Republican candidates say that they'd get rid of farming subsidies? May have been Trump, but I forget which one it actually was.

Though Trump, if it was him, hasn't mentioned that since the debate where it was mentioned I don't think. Not aware if he ever said it more in his speeches.
He did say something along those lines at some point, checking. It was more of a "get rid of all subsidies and let the free market sort it out". Said some stuff that would contradict that too, though, of course.

Now, that said? If trump got rid of farming subsidies farmers would kill him, and I'm about 70% sure I'm speaking literally there.
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12380 on: November 13, 2016, 07:34:43 pm »

With pitchforks
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12381 on: November 13, 2016, 07:35:44 pm »

Ever seen what a threshing machine does to a human body?

It used to happen a lot in the early days of automation. These days not so much. The machine is still quite capable of it though.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 07:37:22 pm by wierd »
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12382 on: November 13, 2016, 07:36:41 pm »

We're just discussing side effects here, and not to sound like a conspiracy theorist... but there are in fact people who benefit from everyone else focusing on effects rather than causes.

The whole "if you don't work you're lazy and a bad person and going to hell, and don't deserve to have anything, and if you can't find work, just go out and find something, I hear people scoop shit these days, stop being lazy and go scoop shit you slacker" ideology and "Protestant Work Ethic" was an after the fact justification applied to laws which helped transition from serfdom to wage labor.

You worked for "honest" wages, and it was "more moral" to be satisfied with ordinary things, and so forth.

Now we've gotten so used to the idea that market forces are some fundamental aspect of reality that looking at them as a cultural construct--one with negative consequences given current trends--is easily dismissed.

"The market isn't innately good or bad, it merely optimizes blah blah blah" the spiel goes at this point.

Life is not an RPG, but market forces being treated as a law of nature with optimization seen as an ideal goal has some shitty outcomes.

If you want to keep score you might create something called value, and a way to track it, let's call it money. You can use these money points to obtain things which have their value costs set for various reasons.

The idea that going for a high score is admirable means people try to keep big piles of these money points, even when they aren't being used, and at some point simply can't be used anymore. You already bought out the GMG loot lists, got all the pluses on your magical items, so now you sit on your hoard and smile because you're on the leaderboard.

This system needs lots of participants though, and it needs npcs. Nobody wants to be an npc because the starting money points are crappy and the beginner gear sucks.

Now, when you're trying to climb the leaderboard one of the most popular builds currently has you set up guilds to produce stuff to sell to newbie adventurers and even npcs, but lots of these guilds need members to run them, so you have to reduce your score some to get them to stay in your guild, right?

What if you could get some wizards and pay them to create some magical servants, bound spirits, golems, and so forth?

Those wouldn't need to reduce your score beyond the initial point cost, so the obvious solution when pursuing an optimal build is cut out all the npcs and replace them with these magical servants and golems, right?

Once you are able to stop the point drain from regularly distributing loot to npc members of your guild you can focus on getting adventurers to use their points on your stuff and anybody else who isn't doing this is going to start sliding down the leaderboard.

Course, without npcs around to provide information and quest hooks and parental background stories for adventurers, that source of points is going to dry up too, and then where do you go?

Maybe there is more to do than chase after gaining a rank or two on this imaginary leaderboard, indeed maybe the whole idea that chasing these rank-ups is noble shouldn't persist, assuming we don't want to look around one day and wonder where all the npcs and adventurers went?
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12383 on: November 13, 2016, 07:38:18 pm »

No, the farmers really arent the problem, just a symptom.

Here's the real problem:


Americans, while having more buying power than any other nation in the world, live in a world where everything is also rediculously expensive for them.  The monopolistic power brokers DO NOT WANT TO PAY THEM PROPERLY.

Instead, this drives down what americans are willing to spend for products and services. See the box of strawberries. Americans wont pay more for them. They will take the cheapest one every single time, because many are indeed living hand to mouth, depspite having more total dollars paid to them every year than other people in other countries.

Because of this, produce has to be kept at an artificially low pricepoint, otherwise people literally could not afford to buy food.

The government understands this, and gives the subsidies.

Even with the subsidies, there is not enough room for profit for a farmer to grow his operation. He seeks "creative" solutions to the artificially reduced pricepoint enforced by improper wages... Sadly, this involves... more improper wages.

I'm sorry, what? If Americans will pay less for food... then wouldn't the cost of living go down? And so people can afford to buy food, right?
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
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The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12384 on: November 13, 2016, 07:47:05 pm »

No doze.

We live in a highly polarized economy.

On one side, we have people like Mark Cuban, Donald Trump, and other "So wealthy, they get paid more to take a shit than a hard working person cleaning up shit will get paid in an entire year."--- and market forces trying to market products to them. (iphones, and the like)

Then on the other, you have "Jeeze, it sure would be good to eat today." people, who without the subsidies, cannot afford to eat.

Over the top of all of it, is this big blustering theme music shouting "CONSUME! CONSUME!! CONSUME!! IT IS YOUR AMERICAN DUTY TO CONSUME! DONT SAVE MONEY, THAT IS EVIL! CONSUME FOR THE GOOD OF THE ECONOMY!"

The people at the top, benefit by paying everyone else the least possible amount, paying themselves the greatest possible amount, putting everyone else out of business, and polarizing the market in this way.

They get food so inexpensive to them that they could waste it every day and not suffer any ill effect.
They get products that are driven down by ordinary people wanting to buy them too, because of the messages their companies belch like so much pollution.  They have a very good thing going for them.


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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12385 on: November 13, 2016, 07:56:37 pm »

My rpg leaderboard with npcs (and ultimately even adventurers) at the risk of being replaced in guilds because the more optimal choice for raising your score involves having magical servants and golems perform those tasks was a pretty good analogy I thought.
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12386 on: November 13, 2016, 08:01:37 pm »

The gist of it is that currency as a means to accomodate trade has become so decoupled from supply and demand that it has become a commodity of itself, with it's own supply and demand, not based on natural occurance, but on greed.

But yeah, I liked your RPG analogy
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12387 on: November 13, 2016, 08:04:00 pm »

So, how do you couple money with supply and demand? One might think barter, but that doesn't work for mass scale economies.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12388 on: November 13, 2016, 08:06:53 pm »

Min wage TRIES to do that i a round-about way, by saying that "THis is as low as you can pay for labor, it is at LEAST this expensive."

It only covers one side of the spectrum though.  There is no "No, you cannot pay yourself more than this amount for running a business.", which is the part we sorely need right now.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12389 on: November 13, 2016, 08:10:50 pm »

Particularily the top-most wages, which is where the gap is running away from itself. Though I can't see people neccesarily agree on where such a max wage cap would be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_wage Cuba is kind of the only one with one (Egypt did recently though), and it's pretty draconian.
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