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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1419643 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12210 on: November 12, 2016, 06:08:54 pm »

You're pretty likely to be SOL, then. The lobbying bits are straight up unconstitutional, heh.
Since that did unconstitutionality stopped anyone in USA seriously bent on doing something? I remember stuff like torture camps and mass surveillance being a thing, unconstitutional, but still a thing.

Now, I'm rather sceptical of Trump being able to push that through, but if he can somehow retain his pre-election power to plough right through the entire Republican establishment and bend them to his will, he could do it.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12211 on: November 12, 2016, 06:16:15 pm »

Still not a chance in hell, at the very least unless the SCOTUS gets sufficiently stacked. He's calling for amendments on that front. Amendments takes 2/3rds majority on top of a spread of other things, which is so vanishingly unlikely at this point in time it'd be amusing if people hadn't believed him. Do remember, he lost the popular vote. Stuff like this isn't weighted in the favor of less populated states, and unless some damn weird shit happens before he tries, he's not getting support of a supermajority on anything that isn't free, perfectly safe, oral sex for all. Probably not even that, tbh.
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Crashmaster

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12212 on: November 12, 2016, 06:20:54 pm »

Would all democrats really accept maintaining potential foreign influence over the country just so say, 'fuck you,' to Trump?

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12213 on: November 12, 2016, 06:24:37 pm »

There is no foreign influence over America. People don't understand the way influence works. Senior partner always has the power, and America is the senior power of the entire world.

Do you know why Saudi Arabia is so eager to have friendly relations with this country's politicians? It's because they don't want to get fucked. If America thinks enough is enough and trade blockades Saudi Arabia, that will wound the American economy. Meanwhile, the House of Saud might literally, actually get dragged out in the streets and lynched down to the last Jacobin-style.

We are the motherfuckers. We have damn near everything, though that might be changing soon because of Trump. Even so, you can't play chicken with America.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12214 on: November 12, 2016, 06:38:01 pm »

And beyond that, the answer is not all, but enough. Lot of republicans would reject an attempt to screw with the constitution, too.

Though beyond that, most dems wouldn't reject something like that just to flip trump off, but they'd damn sure do it to something trying to sodomize the first amendment, especially if they get to flip off trump and the GOP in the process.

Said it before. You can do stuff on the lobbying front, but if you try to ban it for just about anyone, you can screw right the hell off.
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Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12215 on: November 12, 2016, 06:41:40 pm »

That's not the only way how influence works.

Saudi Arabia don't need to threaten a trade block (Because you are right, they can't) but they can donate to campaigns, lobbysts, foundations and fund College organizations that shapes narratives.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12216 on: November 12, 2016, 06:43:35 pm »

Saudis are not exactly running on infinite budget, though. Their oil price shenanigans have basically started their own country's death clock, they're in severe deficit and there's no way they're going to be able to build up any non-oil-based-economy by the time their accumulated funds will run out.
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Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12217 on: November 12, 2016, 06:51:18 pm »

True.

Although, not only Saudis do that and the sums of money involved are relatively low for a country like Saudi Arabia. they probably could keep meddling for decades, even if their overall influence has dwindled.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12218 on: November 12, 2016, 06:59:49 pm »

The point is that the Saudis cannot "win" this influence game in a way that does not serve American interests. They have the status quo of holding us at a distance, which makes them beholden to us. They could seek popular sympathy in the West, but that would require them adopting a Western way of life, which also serves American interests. Or they could force us to take what we want from them by force, which also serves us and destroys them.

You want the Saudis to try for influence in the US under these circumstances. It keeps them beholden.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12219 on: November 12, 2016, 07:03:49 pm »

I have to be honest I'm not making the mental connection here between an accusation of unduly influencing a foreign country and the response of their economy being in melt down. Or indeed even the response that in reality it's the foreign country that has the most influence, as if that makes it better from a personal corruption standpoint to say a politician in America isn't being influenced by foreign funds but rather using American influence to gather foreign funds.

Like, it's a big different between the Saudis trying to influence America the country vs and accusation of them trying to influence a particular person within America.

Like, if the US government was taking bribes, that'd be... Good I guesssss....?... But a US government official taking bribes (which is what I think the accusation is) doesn't follow the same logic. Since that particular politician can take actions against the US interests at large to serve the Saudi interests, even if ultimately the interests that are served most is those of the politician, they don't necessarily align with the US interests.

But, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying here?
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12222 on: November 12, 2016, 07:53:40 pm »

What does everyone here think, of George Soros?
Infamous billionaire using his money to influence the world on the elite and popular level to as to engineer the right situations needed to vastly increase his wealth yet further

Buys politicians, protestors, peers, anyone willing to be useful to him is fair game. I can't really blame him, at the end of the day anyone willing to be used by him deserves to get exactly what they sold themselves for; a pawn never complains when it's sacrificed

An economics professor by definition thinks someone who made tons of money playing the markets is good.
Although Soros is really an outsider to the financial system, being a private investor / self-made man rather than someone attached to a bank.
Soros has in fact spent about 1/3rd of everything he's made on charities. No other billionaire has come close to that proportion.
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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12223 on: November 12, 2016, 08:01:07 pm »

@martinuzz/Shadowlord: Good to see some other thoughts on that, it seemed pretty sensible to me, but I've got the whole "American viewpoint" thing making it harder to see how it looks from elsewhere.
I have to be honest I'm not making the mental connection here between an accusation of unduly influencing a foreign country and the response of their economy being in melt down. Or indeed even the response that in reality it's the foreign country that has the most influence, as if that makes it better from a personal corruption standpoint to say a politician in America isn't being influenced by foreign funds but rather using American influence to gather foreign funds.

Like, it's a big different between the Saudis trying to influence America the country vs and accusation of them trying to influence a particular person within America.

Like, if the US government was taking bribes, that'd be... Good I guesssss....?... But a US government official taking bribes (which is what I think the accusation is) doesn't follow the same logic. Since that particular politician can take actions against the US interests at large to serve the Saudi interests, even if ultimately the interests that are served most is those of the politician, they don't necessarily align with the US interests.

But, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying here?
There's no situation where a US politician is able to gain enough by Saudi (or any other foreign nationals) attempts at currying favor with them, that the US as a whole winds up at risk, damaged, or what have you, outside of certain things which have a convenient term and punishment, like treason.

Republicans like to paint the country as though it is being bent over with a line of other countries waiting to take their turn, in reality there is a line, and people being bent over... but the uh... direction isn't how they claim. There were superpowers, then there was one, now there are rising superpowers but we're still more powerful, hence people toying with the term hyperpower or hegemony. You don't screw over a nuclear power with a ridiculous military and force projection capability, so why would anyone try to screw over the one with the most ridiculous military and force projection capability?

I said before, but we kinda built a cultural identity as the "good guys" to the soviet "bad guys" so nobody is really worried about us just running around blatantly taking over everything, but they're still nervous about it because short of a nuclear power stepping in there is literally nothing short of trying to drag us into a proxy war that is going to matter if we started looking around like Debo from Friday.

"Ey, Ecuador, those are some nice looking mountains, GIMME YO SHIT"

It's part of our cultural identity to fight that sort of stuff, to care about international opinion, and such so it's possible to overlook what power on a global scale really looks like if you aren't actually involved in it directly. We don't want to engage in another world war, have to consider a draft, have to deal with the aftermath, all that, no matter how much the outcome of WWII was a benefit in many ways here, the long term damage to the rest of the world and the ever more globally interconnected nature of things means we're not going to engage in one unless literally have no other options.

The damage to our cultural identity of being the aggressors who ruined the world with WWIII is impossible to predict, but I don't see how we'd be able to keep on trucking like we are now if it was undeniable that we were actually the bad guys.

In lots of ways we are absolute assholes to other countries, but they can be presented in ways which are easier to swallow. There's no way to spin "well, we ended up taking over most of the western hemisphere, destroyed the global economy, had a limited nuclear exchange at the end there, and engaged in a bit of direct genocide while everyone watched" into "we're still totally the good guys though"... is there?

That's probably the main thing people are nervous about regarding Trump, him being President means he's Commander-in-Chief which means he can point at a spot on a map and basically say "hey, fuck them, and everyone in their general vicinity" and it's hard to figure out how to get out of doing it. We count on the sanity of whoever ends up sitting in that seat to prevent them doing that sort of shit.

*General looks at map* 'Uh, Sir, that's Omaha.'
*Trump squints* "That's what those squiggles mean?"
*General sighs and rubs his forehead* 'Yes, Sir.'
*Trump leans back and thinks for a second* "So why exactly shouldn't we blow them up?"
*General has a pained look on his face* 'They're us, Sir.'
*Trump rubs his chin* "Huh, learn something new every day."
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12224 on: November 12, 2016, 09:00:07 pm »

@martinuzz/Shadowlord: Good to see some other thoughts on that, it seemed pretty sensible to me, but I've got the whole "American viewpoint" thing making it harder to see how it looks from elsewhere.
I have to be honest I'm not making the mental connection here between an accusation of unduly influencing a foreign country and the response of their economy being in melt down. Or indeed even the response that in reality it's the foreign country that has the most influence, as if that makes it better from a personal corruption standpoint to say a politician in America isn't being influenced by foreign funds but rather using American influence to gather foreign funds.

Like, it's a big different between the Saudis trying to influence America the country vs and accusation of them trying to influence a particular person within America.

Like, if the US government was taking bribes, that'd be... Good I guesssss....?... But a US government official taking bribes (which is what I think the accusation is) doesn't follow the same logic. Since that particular politician can take actions against the US interests at large to serve the Saudi interests, even if ultimately the interests that are served most is those of the politician, they don't necessarily align with the US interests.

But, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying here?
There's no situation where a US politician is able to gain enough by Saudi (or any other foreign nationals) attempts at currying favor with them, that the US as a whole winds up at risk, damaged, or what have you, outside of certain things which have a convenient term and punishment, like treason.

Republicans like to paint the country as though it is being bent over with a line of other countries waiting to take their turn, in reality there is a line, and people being bent over... but the uh... direction isn't how they claim. There were superpowers, then there was one, now there are rising superpowers but we're still more powerful, hence people toying with the term hyperpower or hegemony. You don't screw over a nuclear power with a ridiculous military and force projection capability, so why would anyone try to screw over the one with the most ridiculous military and force projection capability?

I said before, but we kinda built a cultural identity as the "good guys" to the soviet "bad guys" so nobody is really worried about us just running around blatantly taking over everything, but they're still nervous about it because short of a nuclear power stepping in there is literally nothing short of trying to drag us into a proxy war that is going to matter if we started looking around like Debo from Friday.

"Ey, Ecuador, those are some nice looking mountains, GIMME YO SHIT"

It's part of our cultural identity to fight that sort of stuff, to care about international opinion, and such so it's possible to overlook what power on a global scale really looks like if you aren't actually involved in it directly. We don't want to engage in another world war, have to consider a draft, have to deal with the aftermath, all that, no matter how much the outcome of WWII was a benefit in many ways here, the long term damage to the rest of the world and the ever more globally interconnected nature of things means we're not going to engage in one unless literally have no other options.

The damage to our cultural identity of being the aggressors who ruined the world with WWIII is impossible to predict, but I don't see how we'd be able to keep on trucking like we are now if it was undeniable that we were actually the bad guys.

In lots of ways we are absolute assholes to other countries, but they can be presented in ways which are easier to swallow. There's no way to spin "well, we ended up taking over most of the western hemisphere, destroyed the global economy, had a limited nuclear exchange at the end there, and engaged in a bit of direct genocide while everyone watched" into "we're still totally the good guys though"... is there?

That's probably the main thing people are nervous about regarding Trump, him being President means he's Commander-in-Chief which means he can point at a spot on a map and basically say "hey, fuck them, and everyone in their general vicinity" and it's hard to figure out how to get out of doing it. We count on the sanity of whoever ends up sitting in that seat to prevent them doing that sort of shit.

*General looks at map* 'Uh, Sir, that's Omaha.'
*Trump squints* "That's what those squiggles mean?"
*General sighs and rubs his forehead* 'Yes, Sir.'
*Trump leans back and thinks for a second* "So why exactly shouldn't we blow them up?"
*General has a pained look on his face* 'They're us, Sir.'
*Trump rubs his chin* "Huh, learn something new every day."

I'm from the US too, for the record.

I like to examine history, since it can inform the current and potential future situation. For instance, looking back, when Hitler solved the Great Depression for Germany, that really sold him to the public and brought him his gigantic approval ratings. That and his very effective propaganda machine (Trump also has such a propaganda machine, even if heretofore it has not worked on much of the country's population), blaming the jews for all the country's problems (you may note some similarities to what Trump has said, though he hasn't gone farther what with not being in power).

The way Hitler solved the Great Depression for Germany was by mobilizing for war - manufacturing warships, tanks, guns, ammo, everything else you need for war - and by building up the army. These both reduce the number of unemployed people by providing employment, either in factories, or in the military.

It's hard to predict what Trump will do, since he's held multiple sides of almost every position he has ever taken, sometimes only separated by a day or two. The wall, and Mexico's refusal to pay for it, and if Trump slaps tarrifs on them and they retaliate with their own, could potentially just be a convenient excuse to invade Mexico. He could also use immigration as a reason ("They're sending rapists and murderers"). The question is: Will he decide to try to take over the world? If so, where will he start? China has nukes, and a military that is strong and getting stronger, with the blueprints to our best military tech, but who would stand up for Mexico and how could they resist if Trump sent the armed forces rolling in? (I could see the cartels maybe turning into a serious threat if he did invade Mexico, though)

It's also worth noticing the differences. Importantly, Trump doesn't have an equivalent to the Nazi Party running congress for him. He just has the GOP, which may stop cooperating if he goes full Hitler. The military may not cooperate either, but I think he can fire anyone in the military who won't. At the moment, however, his transition team is reportedly having trouble even filling the positions under cabinet officials because nobody serious wants to work in his administration.
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