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[smjjames]

In other news: http://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8120063/american-democracy-doomed

Only thing is that the period when the US was most like a parliamentary system was in the 19th century when the President didn't have all that much power and there was a lot delegated to Congress, if there was a good time to change to parliamentary system, it would have been then.

Short of an utter collapse, I don't see how it would be possible to transform into a parliamentary system because the closest thing we have to a PM is the Speaker of the House.

Still though, I do wonder what it would take to transform into a parliamentary system, perhaps with the same powers of the president transferred to whatever the new version of a Prime Minister that we cook up.

[wierd]

Man, had a lot more typed out, but it ain't really worth the trouble. Just need to say this much, at least on this particular subject. Wierd? You do not know how country churches work. You've got (or at least are presenting) an idealized version, apparently formulated by positive experiences. These places get a hell of a lot nastier than you seem to think they do. Exclusion defines them. They're tolerant of outsiders for a bit -- sometimes, if you're the right sort and they're the right congregation -- but more than that is a helluva' sketchier question. There's a reason LGBT folks, among others, are fair fearful of the US's religious right, and it's pretty damn good. There's more than a few that are like what you've been describing. But there's a hell of a lot that aren't, too.

The rest of it... think what it boils down to, if y'ask me, is that the problem with what folks have been talking about the last bit is that you don't have a right to force your association on someone else. They ain't gotta' tolerate your shit, well intended or not, and you got no proper mandate t'force 'em to. They don't want you in a discussion, well, sod off, yeah? All this talk of respect and crap -- if you have any, you'll respect that. If they're forcin' association on you, same thing, but don't talk like they're the ones committin' some kind of moral wrong when the actual problem is they don't want you involved in their discussion.

And, y'know. When y'all are demanding these safe spaces and whatnot should screw off? What you're saying is you want the right to force your association on folks, despite their wishes. Not cool, y'ken? Public spaces are public spaces but ain't no one owe you an ear or their time.

I admit that I, like other asexuals, have an unfair advantage here.

The christian bible has a literal provision for us, and if a really fundie preacher gets crude, I can politely infirm him that I am not deviant in any way by using it.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-12.htm

As such, we make excellent carriers of olive branches. We can go were others are forbidden or unwelcome.

Shame that other sexualuties are excluded.


In full disclosure, I have only needed it once.

[Rolepgeek]

(on the safe space stuff that is)

See now, that's where my issue with the concept of it. You're just relabelling common decency and giving to people as a tool to say "oh, no no no, you can't do that to me here I'm X/Y/Z!" When in reality the racists/bigots/homophobes will break your "safe space" and shit all over you and the normal people will just be like, "Okay, wasn't planning on being an asshole today anyways."

Well...no. You're making this like it's an identity thing. It's not. It's a location/area thing. 'You can't do that to me, in this place, and the reason why is that my friends and I will kick you out if you do, or call the cops.' It's a designated place where people can work together to keep each other safe. It's not an 'all the time everywhere' thing. It's a commonly negotiated area where there are rules about what sort of behavior is acceptable.

Not just anywhere can be a church, and some people are deeply offended by the very idea of one.

On a college? Not appropriate. The college should have rules to forbid violence regardless. That's what campus police are supposed to help with. (But admittedly, not always).  Just like it would get absurd real fast to have 50 different churches to different gods on a multiracial and multi culturally attended university, insisting on putting a "safe space" there, in a place intended for study and learning, is just bonkers.

Now, if you want to run one in the dorm, and say "hey, if you have trouble you can crash at my place." That's different, but the school shouldn't recognize it as something special just to stroke egos.

I'm not talking about a large portion of the college. But something like a club, except with rules in place? In places where sexual assault is actually fairly prevalent? It's larger than just one-to-one interaction, wierd, that's the point. It's often a place for discussion. It's just a place where people can rightfully expect not to be called a fag for holding hands with their boyfriend. The 'safe space' in this instance is next to the health center, or it's in the Pride Center, just like the churches are just outside campus as well, as it's a public university. But this isn't a church, it just fills a similar role, with the difference being that LGBTQ groups tend to be welcoming of any 'denomination', and you don't get to choose your 'denomination'. It's a combination of support group, literal place of refuge (support groups are groups, not places, that usually meet as specified times, not ready to be had as needed), and designated place to discuss issues relevant to the group.

Thank you for sharing that passage, by the way, wierd. Was not previously aware of that bible passage.

[Rolan7]

Huh, me neither.  That's cool.

[smjjames]

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/lindsey-graham-ted-cruz-supreme-court-shortlist-231270

....  wat? O.o

Ted Cruz has made enough enemies in the Senate that he has no chance of getting into SCOTUS. Maybe Graham is just doing that to be mean to Cruz. *shrug*

edit: Hm, when was the last time a SCOTUS judge was taken from the Senate ranks....

[WealthyRadish]

In other news: http://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8120063/american-democracy-doomed

God, 2015. A time when the air was clearer, the sky bluer, and our hearts were relatively unburdened by fear and anger.

More seriously, I think this article would be very relevant right now if Trump were elected president but somehow Democrats had taken congress. As it is though, the problems with the presidential system probably won't lead to a constitutional crisis. I don't think even Trump is incompetent enough for that to happen under these conditions. Maybe if he does start holding referendums when congress refuses to implement these reforms, but again, I don't think he cares enough about them to really go through with it.

[wierd]

Huh, me neither.  That's cool.

There is hidden strength in understanding.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

And, y'know. When y'all are demanding these safe spaces and whatnot should screw off? What you're saying is you want the right to force your association on folks, despite their wishes. Not cool, y'ken? Public spaces are public spaces but ain't no one owe you an ear or their time.

That doesn't even make any sense. Verbal or physical assault isn't association. I think a lot of people are misreading what I'm saying. Everyone has a right to not be assaulted, discriminated against, and be protected from hate speech. No one has to lend you "an ear or their time", but that DOES. NOT. MEAN. People can't act how they want. You don't have to listen, but everyone else damn well can talk. No matter how bullshit it is--PROVIDED it doesn't violate the above. Fuck this "association" thing. There is no logic to that. Anyone violating a "safe space" is not associating with you, they are criticizing you. AND THATS FINE--as long as they don't violate the above. BEEECAAAUUUSE, you shouldn't be discriminated against, assaulted, or be the subject of hate speech anywhere. You don't have the right to lock up a room somewhere and say YOU CANT GET ME IN HERE. ITS FREE FROM YOUR SHIT HERE. You can't do that. You don't have the right to live in your own fantasy world. You're fucking free to NOT associate with someone 10000000000% percent of the time.

Listen. I just don't understand what you think you're accomplishing with making places safe spaces. Let's stick with the classroom example. Everyone should respectful to everyone else in the classroom. Why make it a safe space? Just to say, oh you can be a racist fuck, just not in here? Well fine, because we're all barred from assaulting, discriminating against, and subjecting other to hate speech anyhow. But if a racist/homophobic/bigoted person doesnt do those things, they're technically allowed in the safe space anyways. Soooooooooo... what have you done? Now if you said that they couldn't be there because they're a known racist or what have you, that's also wrong because everyone has a right to be places. If this is a classroom, assuming of course both sets of people are enrolled and in good standing.

Privately, ya, you can tell people to get out of your house whenever anyways. So what the fuck IS a safe space? I don't get it. You're ALREADY AND HAVE BEEN FREE TO BE ALONE WITH LIKE MINDED PEOPLE WHO DONT OFFEND YOU AND TO STAY AWAY FROM OTHERS WHO ARE RUDE OR WHATEVER TO YOU. If they enter you supposed safe space without your permission you can't stop them, but heck you can just go somewhere else or somewhere private.

(on the safe space stuff that is)

See now, that's where my issue with the concept of it. You're just relabelling common decency and giving to people as a tool to say "oh, no no no, you can't do that to me here I'm X/Y/Z!" When in reality the racists/bigots/homophobes will break your "safe space" and shit all over you and the normal people will just be like, "Okay, wasn't planning on being an asshole today anyways."

How is this something you have an issue with, at least alone? Your issue is that they are ineffective?

I guess! My issue is that they don't really exist. The areas where you CAN hypothetically have a safe space are already spaces where you are barred from assaulting, discriminating against, or subjecting people to hate speech. Soooo.... just what is it?

(on the safe space stuff that is)

See now, that's where my issue with the concept of it. You're just relabelling common decency and giving to people as a tool to say "oh, no no no, you can't do that to me here I'm X/Y/Z!" When in reality the racists/bigots/homophobes will break your "safe space" and shit all over you and the normal people will just be like, "Okay, wasn't planning on being an asshole today anyways."

Well...no. You're making this like it's an identity thing. It's not. It's a location/area thing. 'You can't do that to me, in this place, and the reason why is that my friends and I will kick you out if you do, or call the cops.' It's a designated place where people can work together to keep each other safe. It's not an 'all the time everywhere' thing. It's a commonly negotiated area where there are rules about what sort of behavior is acceptable.

YOU COULD ALREADY DO THAT. EXCEPT THAT WHY WOULD YOU THINK A RACIST OR BIGOT WOULD STAND BY WHAT YOU DEFINE AS THE PHYSICAL AREA WHERE YOU CANT BE MADE FUN OF OR HATED?? UNLESS THEY HAVE TO BECAUE YOU BOTH ARE PART OF THE SAME ORGANIZATION THATS GONNA FORCE THAT MATTER, BUT THEN ITS NOT REALLY A SAFE SPACE ANYWAYS ITS JSUT A NORMAL SPACE WHERE EVERYONE HAS TO FOLLOW THE NORMAL RULES OF SOCIETY.

(on the safe space stuff that is)

See now, that's where my issue with the concept of it. You're just relabelling common decency and giving to people as a tool to say "oh, no no no, you can't do that to me here I'm X/Y/Z!" When in reality the racists/bigots/homophobes will break your "safe space" and shit all over you and the normal people will just be like, "Okay, wasn't planning on being an asshole today anyways."

Well...no. You're making this like it's an identity thing. It's not. It's a location/area thing. 'You can't do that to me, in this place, and the reason why is that my friends and I will kick you out if you do, or call the cops.' It's a designated place where people can work together to keep each other safe. It's not an 'all the time everywhere' thing. It's a commonly negotiated area where there are rules about what sort of behavior is acceptable.

Not just anywhere can be a church, and some people are deeply offended by the very idea of one.

On a college? Not appropriate. The college should have rules to forbid violence regardless. That's what campus police are supposed to help with. (But admittedly, not always).  Just like it would get absurd real fast to have 50 different churches to different gods on a multiracial and multi culturally attended university, insisting on putting a "safe space" there, in a place intended for study and learning, is just bonkers.

Now, if you want to run one in the dorm, and say "hey, if you have trouble you can crash at my place." That's different, but the school shouldn't recognize it as something special just to stroke egos.

I'm not talking about a large portion of the college. But something like a club, except with rules in place? In places where sexual assault is actually fairly prevalent? It's larger than just one-to-one interaction, wierd, that's the point. It's often a place for discussion. It's just a place where people can rightfully expect not to be called a fag for holding hands with their boyfriend. The 'safe space' in this instance is next to the health center, or it's in the Pride Center, just like the churches are just outside campus as well, as it's a public university. But this isn't a church, it just fills a similar role, with the difference being that LGBTQ groups tend to be welcoming of any 'denomination', and you don't get to choose your 'denomination'. It's a combination of support group, literal place of refuge (support groups are groups, not places, that usually meet as specified times, not ready to be had as needed), and designated place to discuss issues relevant to the group.

Thank you for sharing that passage, by the way, wierd. Was not previously aware of that bible passage.

Still I don't understand. These are places that you're not allowed to do those things anyways. I'm not sure whether a pride center is considered public or private property, but it if its public, you can't bar people from entering just because they don't like you, if its private then you can do whatever you want anyways.

I feel like i'm not getting it. What's the point? Someone explain it in depth to me? Private property is your own safe space anyways, because you're allowed to do what you want. Public property is public and thus you can't bar people from it unless they break the law. No???

EDIT: Wall of text. Sorry lads.

tl;dr Scoopz is both confused by what a "safe space" is legally, and angered that people think such a thing protects them from people who would otherwise infringe on their rights to feel good about themselves.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Dude, calm down first, okay?

[TheBiggerFish]

Hate speech is not unprotected speech, by the way.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Dude, calm down first, okay?

Yes, lol. Just got more intense as the replies built up. I'm good!

Hate speech is not unprotected speech, by the way.

True, as long as it isn't promoting imminent violence anyways. But still the point remains, if its public it can't be a safe space because you can't tell people what to do. If its private, its already safe because you could always tell people what to do. Is that a wrong analysis?

[TheBiggerFish]

You're right, but the concept of explicitly saying 'you cannot do this in this private space' deserves recognition.

[wierd]

I consider them unnecessary. Society frowns on violence regardless.

At worst, I find them a nascent source for hate to grow.
Regardless of "sheildiness".

Just like you don't need Christmas to give a gift, you don't need a church to worship, or a school to learn, you don't need a specific place to feel you belong.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

And, y'know. When y'all are demanding these safe spaces and whatnot should screw off? What you're saying is you want the right to force your association on folks, despite their wishes. Not cool, y'ken? Public spaces are public spaces but ain't no one owe you an ear or their time.

That doesn't even make any sense. Verbal or physical assault isn't association.

Insisting that you get to enter a private space in which you are unwelcome, and say stuff at the people within, is association.

I think a lot of people are misreading what I'm saying. Everyone has a right to not be assaulted, discriminated against, and be protected from hate speech.

Here's the thing - homophobia expresses itself in more ways than that.

No one has to lend you "an ear or their time", but that DOES. NOT. MEAN. People can't act how they want. You don't have to listen, but everyone else damn well can talk. No matter how bullshit it is--PROVIDED it doesn't violate the above.

Err, no? It's a private space, and if they don't want you to talk at them, you don't talk at them.

Fuck this "association" thing.

It's a goddamn Constitutional right!

There is no logic to that. Anyone violating a "safe space" is not associating with you, they are criticizing you.

No, it's association. You don't really understand the current use of the term - it just means "to be involved with." Basically, we're saying "if X doesn't want Y to talk to them, and X is in a private space and wants Y to leave, then Y should leave."

AND THATS FINE--as long as they don't violate the above.

No it's not, because you can express your homophobia in legal ways, and there should be homophobia-free havens for gaypeople.

BEEECAAAUUUSE, you shouldn't be discriminated against, assaulted, or be the subject of hate speech anywhere.

But you are harassed. Isn't that a problem?

You don't have the right to lock up a room somewhere and say YOU CANT GET ME IN HERE. ITS FREE FROM YOUR SHIT HERE. You can't do that. You don't have the right to live in your own fantasy world.

FLY, DAMMIT, FLY! *throws the newborn baby bird out of the nest*

Look, yes, you do have the right to ignore the world, but that's not what a safe space does anyway. And what gives you the right to barge into this private space anyway?

You're fucking free to NOT associate with someone 10000000000% percent of the time.

Listen. I just don't understand what you think you're accomplishing with making places safe spaces. Let's stick with the classroom example. Everyone should respectful to everyone else in the classroom. Why make it a safe space? Just to say, oh you can be a racist fuck, just not in here? Well fine, because we're all barred from assaulting, discriminating against, and subjecting other to hate speech anyhow. But if a racist/homophobic/bigoted person doesnt do those things, they're technically allowed in the safe space anyways. Soooooooooo... what have you done? Now if you said that they couldn't be there because they're a known racist or what have you, that's also wrong because everyone has a right to be places. If this is a classroom, assuming of course both sets of people are enrolled and in good standing.

Yeah, you "don't understand" all right. Nobody's supporting making public spaces into safe spaces. That's the Sword. The Sword is bad.

Privately, ya, you can tell people to get out of your house whenever anyways. So what the fuck IS a safe space? I don't get it. You're ALREADY AND HAVE BEEN FREE TO BE ALONE WITH LIKE MINDED PEOPLE WHO DONT OFFEND YOU AND TO STAY AWAY FROM OTHERS WHO ARE RUDE OR WHATEVER TO YOU. If they enter you supposed safe space without your permission you can't stop them, but heck you can just go somewhere else or somewhere private.

So your problem is that everywhere should already be a safe space? Lol, if only...

(on the safe space stuff that is)

See now, that's where my issue with the concept of it. You're just relabelling common decency and giving to people as a tool to say "oh, no no no, you can't do that to me here I'm X/Y/Z!" When in reality the racists/bigots/homophobes will break your "safe space" and shit all over you and the normal people will just be like, "Okay, wasn't planning on being an asshole today anyways."

How is this something you have an issue with, at least alone? Your issue is that they are ineffective?

I guess! My issue is that they don't really exist. The areas where you CAN hypothetically have a safe space are already spaces where you are barred from assaulting, discriminating against, or subjecting people to hate speech. Soooo.... just what is it?

Spaces where you are barred from other forms of harassment.

(on the safe space stuff that is)

See now, that's where my issue with the concept of it. You're just relabelling common decency and giving to people as a tool to say "oh, no no no, you can't do that to me here I'm X/Y/Z!" When in reality the racists/bigots/homophobes will break your "safe space" and shit all over you and the normal people will just be like, "Okay, wasn't planning on being an asshole today anyways."

Well...no. You're making this like it's an identity thing. It's not. It's a location/area thing. 'You can't do that to me, in this place, and the reason why is that my friends and I will kick you out if you do, or call the cops.' It's a designated place where people can work together to keep each other safe. It's not an 'all the time everywhere' thing. It's a commonly negotiated area where there are rules about what sort of behavior is acceptable.

YOU COULD ALREADY DO THAT. EXCEPT THAT WHY WOULD YOU THINK A RACIST OR BIGOT WOULD STAND BY WHAT YOU DEFINE AS THE PHYSICAL AREA WHERE YOU CANT BE MADE FUN OF OR HATED?? UNLESS THEY HAVE TO BECAUE YOU BOTH ARE PART OF THE SAME ORGANIZATION THATS GONNA FORCE THAT MATTER, BUT THEN ITS NOT REALLY A SAFE SPACE ANYWAYS ITS JSUT A NORMAL SPACE WHERE EVERYONE HAS TO FOLLOW THE NORMAL RULES OF SOCIETY.

Your point is that safe spaces don't work? Wouldn't that undermine your other points?

I consider them unnecessary. Society frowns on violence regardless.

At worst, I find them a nascent source for hate to grow.
Regardless of "sheildiness".

Just like you don't need Christmas to give a gift, you don't need a church to worship, or a school to learn, you don't need a specific place to feel you belong.

But it helps. And some people need all the help they can get.

[TheBiggerFish]

I consider them unnecessary. Society frowns on violence regardless.

At worst, I find them a nascent source for hate to grow.
Regardless of "sheildiness".

Just like you don't need Christmas to give a gift, you don't need a church to worship, or a school to learn, you don't need a specific place to feel you belong.

But you do.  Humans are social creatures, and not having a social group is a Bad Thing.

Have any of you read the article I linked at all?