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[Criptfeind]

Churches have unlocked doors. Anyone can go in.

Assuming you follow the code of conduct of course.

Which group went on the bigger nation wide rampage?

* Criptfeind raises hand

Oh. I know this one. It was the group that killed and tortured gay people right?

[Urist McScoopbeard]

safe spaces are bullshit, and let me tell you why. You shouldn't be able to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of sexuality or religion or what-have-you anywhere. I fuckin' see this behavior all the time, people want to hide behind terms and words to avoid confrontation and it's fucking bullshit, if someone discriminates against you go get the cops, beat the shit out of them, or fuck off. Looking down your nose at them and boldly declaring that "this is a safe space" does nothing but aggravate one party and give the other party a trump card (no pun intended, but gladly welcomed) to abuse freely instead of standing up for themselves with logical argument and human integrity.

It's NOT unreasonable to want to have a place you can be yourself. That's a lot of what makes America great already: those places exist. What bothers me is telling me I can't criticize someone just because they're part of certain groups.

Just reposting this to address the newly revived issue. What does a safe space truly do? Hm? People who respect them would be respectful regardless of whether or not such a thing existed, people who are homophobic don't give a fuck and will try and hurt you anyways.

I just hate the term safe space. I really really do. The people out there who have been truly tortured for who they are deserve some respite, but they should get that in way that doesn't leave them sheltered and frankly unready to go back out in to the world. I have an LGBTQ acquaintance (not a friend, I truly hate who she is--not cause she's a lesbian, she's just a huge bitch) who has a safe space mentality with everything and she's incredibly frustrating and annoying to deal with because she can only express her feelings in a back-handed and passive-aggressive fashion. She constantly strives to make people feel sorry for her and give off the image that she is competent, but easily hurt so as to avoid criticism. I wanna rip her eyeballs out.The whole shield or sword analogy is shit. It goes hand in hand, one does not exist without the other. If you keep telling people that they're protected just because they're a certain way then they'll start using it as a defense mechanism.

tl;dr good people are good, bad people will hurt regardless if you declare something a safe space.

[wierd]

Churches have unlocked doors. Anyone can go in.

Assuming you follow the code of conduct of course.

Which group went on the bigger nation wide rampage?

* Criptfeind raises hand

Oh. I know this one. It was the group that killed and tortured gay people right?

Look at scope.  Religion has had more time to.... Mature... As a source of hate.  But really, how many such groups are there, nation wide? A dozen or so?

How many thousand protesters are making asses if themselves in cities across the us right now?

Severity, yes, they have us beat, but if things continue, not for long.  In total scope if reaction? We are making colossal asses of ourselves.

[wierd]

safe spaces are bullshit, and let me tell you why. You shouldn't be able to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of sexuality or religion or what-have-you anywhere. I fuckin' see this behavior all the time, people want to hide behind terms and words to avoid confrontation and it's fucking bullshit, if someone discriminates against you go get the cops, beat the shit out of them, or fuck off. Looking down your nose at them and boldly declaring that "this is a safe space" does nothing but aggravate one party and give the other party a trump card (no pun intended, but gladly welcomed) to abuse freely instead of standing up for themselves with logical argument and human integrity.

It's NOT unreasonable to want to have a place you can be yourself. That's a lot of what makes America great already: those places exist. What bothers me is telling me I can't criticize someone just because they're part of certain groups.

Just reposting this to address the newly revived issue. What does a safe space truly do? Hm? People who respect them would be respectful regardless of whether or not such a thing existed, people who are homophobic don't give a fuck and will try and hurt you anyways.

I just hate the term safe space. I really really do. The people out there who have been truly tortured for who they are deserve some respite, but they should get that in way that doesn't leave them sheltered and frankly unready to go back out in to the world. I have an LGBTQ acquaintance (not a friend, I truly hate who she is--not cause she's a lesbian, she's just a huge bitch) who has a safe space mentality with everything and she's incredibly frustrating and annoying to deal with because she can only express her feelings in a back-handed and passive-aggressive fashion. She constantly strives to make people feel sorry for her and give off the image that she is competent, but easily hurt so as to avoid criticism. I wanna rip her eyeballs out.The whole shield or sword analogy is shit. It goes hand in hand, one does not exist without the other. If you keep telling people that they're protected just because they're a certain way then they'll start using it as a defense mechanism.

tl;dr good people are good, bad people will hurt regardless if you declare something a safe space.

And people burn churches with people locked inside. Do the churches lock their doors to them?

No.

We are at least ad good as they are, we can do the same.

I see you share my view and distaste for how the group identity has been evolving.  I take it then understand why I distance myself, even while shaking them vigorously, like I did some pages back.

Getting support is fine. Everybody needs somebody sometime, as the song goes. But echo chambers to reinforce self worth through external symbols, such as needing the group identity so much that you lose your own (and become a pride parade whore), and resort to seeing the world as a bunch of stawnen because we are too vulnerable to learn about those people in earnest, we become monsters in our own right, and the fear and doubt always lead to violence.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

And people burn churches with people locked inside. Do the churches lock their doors to them?

No.

We are at least ad good as they are, we can do the same.

So... Is that for or against "safe spaces"?

[NullForceOmega]

Could we call them 'respectful places' maybe?  The idea being that they are open but expect people to maintain decorum?  I'm pretty sure that that is basically whet weird is saying right?

[Criptfeind]

We need a respectful place from the name safe space.

[wierd]

Support group has been around since the 50s. No need to call it anything else.

[Rolan7]

Holy crap this is still going on

A classroom should not be considered a "safe space".  Shutting down discourse in that way is terrible.
Yet people should have the right to meet up in private and exclude others, because people need to be able to relax and socialize occasionally.

We are not automatons ready to defend our beliefs from prying eyes and criticism at all times.
And many, maybe most, people get that criticism at home - if they even dare reveal their nature.

Mostly unrelated:  My brother is arguing that Democrats shouldn't use the filibuster because it's "scummy".  We shouldn't "stoop to their level".
This basic practice which is the only thing stopping the Republicans from undoing literally all the good we fought so hard for
The Republicans who literally held the government hostage, they do *anything* to block and win
And he's an extreme progressive who calls Clinton and Obama conservatives...

Such painful idealism, or something.  I don't even know.  In my darker moments I think he's just happier complaining, and doesn't give a shit about the country.  He's espoused the "let it burn" crap before, which is one reason maybe I've been hostile to Berniebros here.  Apologies for that.

[NullForceOmega]

The 'safe space' etymology has become somewhat problematic tho', the point of them seems to be the same as churches/other places where certain behavior is restricted to make people feel comfortable, but the concept has been used very offensively (in the sense of aggression, not hurting peoples feelings) recently.  I especially disagree with attempting to label public area 'safe spaces'.

[Criptfeind]

Support group has been around since the 50s. No need to call it anything else.

I think the question is, is it okay to try to sell alcohol at an AA meeting?

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I have nothing against finding comfort in a friend, or having a support group. They just can't be divisive or excluding.

How would a safe space be divisive? How would it be excluding?

If you exclude people based on their gender/sexuality, that I'd frown upon. If you exclude people based on whether they support you or not, that's fine. But either way, you have the right to assembly. These are private areas, private organizations, and they can do whatever the hell they want to.

Religious people have bible studies. They like visitors.

Churches have unlocked doors. Anyone can go in.

Good for them, but they don't need to be that way. Nobody is requiring them to accept everybody.

But "you aren't gay, what could you possibly know about how we are treated!? Get out!" Style meetings, where pain and hurt get echoed in a place that feels safe through that exclusion? No. Must not permit. Violence that way. Always.

Wierd, remember Sword vs Shield? You're talking about the Sword. The Sword is bad, yes. I agree. The Shield is not.

Doze, I was bullied and beat up in highschool too. Ridiculed for never dating of going to prom. Called gay and faggot for having decidedly female hobbies, like crochet.

I have even been sexually assaulted.

I simply choose not to recoil from it. I want to know why they hate. The why fascinates me more than the what.

I'm sorry if I seemed to presume that you lead a sheltered life. But you didn't need a safe space. Okay. You could handle living in a hostile society - good for you!

But not everybody can. Some people are driven to suicide by this. Having a safe space doesn't mean that you can't study or understand hatred! It means that when you are overwhelmed by the hostility, you have somewhere to retreat you. You can use it as a permanent shelter if you are lucky, you can ignore the hateful world about you. I would argue that that is a fine choice. But you could also use it as a "home base" of sorts as you explore and understand the hate.

Basically, safe spaces as swords are bad. Safe spaces as shields can either be used as a block-the-world-out shield or a safe-home-base shield. Either choice is fine. If the world hates someone, perhaps it would be better if someone still explored, but is it your job to push them out of the nest?

Could we call them 'respectful places' maybe?  The idea being that they are open but expect people to maintain decorum?  I'm pretty sure that that is basically whet weird is saying right?

Isn't that what shieldspaces already are? They don't say "you aren't one of us, we don't want you." They say "no hatred here."

Support group has been around since the 50s. No need to call it anything else.

So you're a linguistic prescriptivist, eh? New names are fine.

Holy crap this is still going on

A classroom should not be considered a "safe space".  Shutting down discourse in that way is terrible.

Safe spaces as swords are bad, yes.

Yet people should have the right to meet up in private and exclude others, because people need to be able to relax and socialize occasionally.

This is a possible shieldspace, as is "no hatred, everybody welcome".

We are not automatons ready to defend our beliefs from prying eyes and criticism at all times.
And many, maybe most, people get that criticism at home - if they even dare reveal their nature.

Good point. I would note that the home is usually a safe space for most people. For LGBT people, it's often not.

[Rolepgeek]

That's why it's not just about declaration. It's about a group of people deciding to use a space and help keep each protected in that space, so that people can feel safe in it. It's a means to be able to say 'this space? You are safe in it. We will all make sure of that.'

Good people versus bad people is not a binary as simple as that. It's not just a matter of 'they won't give a fuck'. If you have a dozen people and they're by themselves, and you can lock the door and call the cops, they'll give a fuck, and usually they'll fuck off when they wouldn't otherwise. There's a primal part of your brain that can respect the basic math of 'outnumbered 12 to 1'.

I get that you guys think people should be exposed to the world, and not coddled or whatever lest they become unable to ever deal with it, and there's a grain of truth in that, but that's not how they're used, most of the time. They're used as temporary respites when the world becomes overwhelming. Air tanks they can breath from every once in a while. When you say you hate safe spaces, the people who use them that way (which is, at least, how I've seen them used, though I've also seen them used as ways to escape shitty parents for a while without just living on the street or hanging out at random clubs), they see you taking away their air masks. Holding their head under water for just that little bit longer, they can take it, right? They have to learn to swim at some point, after all. Why not the hard way?

Safe spaces are an additional option for people. They do not reduce your ability to do stuff in any way other than maybe making it so the people you might interact with (though if they're really staying in that echo chamber they wouldn't interact with you...) are more...I dunno. Whatever it is you think they do to make people unable to deal with the world. Usually the ones I've seen try to teach effective coping mechanisms, rather than to just stay in the safe space forever.

Don't forget: this isn't something limited or new to the social justice movement. It's just only recently gotten powerful enough to manifest it, relatively speaking. Tribalism, othering, groupthink, echo chambers, these are a part of the human condition. We're built to be in tribes.

Criptfiend, when was the last time Gay conversion therapy was used in a way that involved torture? And I don't mean psychological shenanigans unless it's like full on 'YOU'RE A TERRIBLE PERSON' stuff. Read a bit about it and most of that stuff is illegal now. The gay conversion camps are like weird Freudian things at worst, most of the time, from what I could tell. Not 'Okay after archery is electroshock time!'

Bringing up how something used to be practiced as evidence for why it's evil now isn't all that great for credibility. Disease research used to involve infecting minorities without their consent or knowledge and observing how they deteriorated without treatment. Psychotherapy in general used to involve electroshock therapy.

@NullForceOmega: The solution is to use a different term for the corrupted, aggressive sense of the concept. Bubble works well. Continue to use safe space for legitimate safe spaces, and people will (hopefully) realize that you respect the concept, but don't like the way people are abusing it. Which seems to be true. And is also more likely to foster discussion on the issue, because if you dislike all types of safe spaces, (unfortunately) some people will often consider any further input on your part as worthless.

[wierd]

Support group has been around since the 50s. No need to call it anything else.

I think the question is, is it okay to try to sell alcohol at an AA meeting?

Of course not. But somebody boozing at an AA meeting, likely needs that meeting.

[NullForceOmega]

Actually an awful lot of them seem to be saying, 'if you disagree with us at all you're a horrible person who needs to be locked up' instead of even being even slightly tolerant.  To me that is fundamentally violating the spirit of tolerance and equal treatment.

@ RPG: I have no problem with people wanting to feel comfortable, but they aren't in any way shape or form guaranteed it by anything.  I choose to be respectful of other people, but I will not be forced into it by anything.