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[Wolfhunter107]

I think the country church model works best.

You are not supposed to destroy the pews, piss on the pulpit it shit down the organ pipes.

That said, *anyone* may come in, learn about the faith, or pray in silence. None will disturb you. The door is always open.

It does not exclude.

sweet mother of fornication I am actually laughing in disbelief right now

You've never been to a country church, have you?

E: Or if you have, I would sodding love to know what part of the countryside you've been visiting where "it does not exclude" isn't about the most hilariously misrepresentative description of a country church possible.

I have been in several. I *live* in Kansas, remember?

The secret is to not be a douchebag to the congregation.

And throwing bottles at people isn't?

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

-snippety snip-

I've been linking that several times already, although indirectly as I've been linking to an article that discusses it.

re the whole safe space and SJW stuff: I get the supposed intent behind a safe space, but the safe space thing was taken to really absurd poportions where entire classrooms would be considered safe spaces to not discuss something, If anything, the poportions that it was being taken to was fostering the same kind of 'my way or the highway' thing that Republicans are so fond of doing and just stick their fingers in their ears and go 'la la la la' instead of listening to other peoples arguments and counterarguments and, well, you know, actual debate.

Also, categorically, the whole campus SJW thing is now causing research not to be done, if any of the questions, let alone the conclusions of the research could upset some group or other. That to me is the most dangerous situation here: "safe spaces" includes the intellectual and research. You often cannot even ask research questions where the potential conclusions you could come to might offend some protected group. There is either funding or political pressure not to research potentially challenging issues, and if not overt outward pressure, researchers are self-censoring their research topics due to the political climate at colleges. And that fear of doing actual research is actively preventing us answering the very questions that divide people on these issues.

If you want someone who eloquently discusses these issues, look for Jonothan Haidt's videos (warning this video is long, but worth it if you're interested in the issues).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8

Ah. I believe I understand what is being discussed now.

Yes, the I am being offended! people are a problem, though they are constrained largely to the Internet and campuses. But they do not speak for all LGBT people, nor for all allies, nor for all Social Justice Warriors, the true ones who stand for fairness and equality, not just "here's a reason to be assholes to people". Generalizing between the true and false SJWs is even worse than being a false SJW yourself.

(also this isn't in response to you, reelya, just so you know)

[martinuzz]

And throwing bottles at people isn't?

He who is without gin throwest the first bottle?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You know, the funny part is that for all the complaining about SJW oppression wierd is currently the most #triggered person in the thread.

[wierd]

And throwing bottles at people isn't?

He who is without gin throwest the first bottle?

Love the sinner, hate the sin.  Not an adherent, but Jesus was pretty smart.

[wierd]

I choose not to cause harm. I might be rude and coarse at times, but never with hate or malice. The sjws I see call for horrible things, like cultural genocide.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

[Rolepgeek]

A forcible intrusion into a private space, can be an opportunity to understand.

Say bottle thrower barges in and makes a scene.

The instinct is to eject him. This is divisive. On principle, it should be avoided except where mortal harm is imminent.

Instead, make him part of the discussion. Get his views straight from the horse's mouth. Don't navel gaze and imagine stawmen, when you have the real thing right there.

Typically, bullies cannot handle lack of reprisal this way. They often flee in terror.


@Wolfhunter: The idea, I believe, is that you don't do that in church. You shouldn't do it at all, ideally, but you certainly don't do that in the house of God. Any house of God. Again, not anywhere, preferably, that's really not acceptable behavior (seriously I've had a whiskey bottle thrown near me when biking (not for anti-gay reasons, pretty sure, just people being stupid) and it shattered and if it had actually been on the bike lane instead of a large patch of gravel off to the side of road (outside a fucking elementary school), I very easily could've ridden over it, popped a tire, and skidded on glass shards. Traffic was heavy enough I couldn't just steer away from it, either.

The reason, is because they suddenly see self in that twisted mirror. Not a monster. It frightens them.

Safe spaces do not operate purely off of exclusion. They operate off of a code of conduct that must be followed, much like a gentleman's club might. Or a nightclub. And when possible, I would agree with you, talking to people works far better. But if someone is causing direct harm, psychological or otherwise, the first priority is to minimize that harm, whether it be by calming down the person who caused the intrusion and having a discussion with them, or by ejecting said individual from the premises.

You're also not supposed to punch anyone in a church, or give them death threats. But you may come in. Most places I've seen are like that. Anyone can come in and learn or hang around if they want to (with the exclusion of, like, stalkers and restraining orders but I think we all agree that's reasonable(or I hope so?)). But you are not permitted to attack people in there, or make them feel unsafe.

And I use the word unsafe, not uncomfortable. Unsafe is when you feel you are in personal danger. Uncomfortable is when you aren't familiar with or enjoying what's happening. The person being in there at all probably makes them feel uncomfortable.


@Criptfiend: He was probably referring back to my post. Speaking of...

@wierd: I apologize, I can see that I was unclear. When I asked "How does it end?", I meant in the manner of 'how do we cause the sliding into the twilight zone that you described to end?' I know that society continually evolves and changes, which is why I asked how you saw events unfolding from that point in society as a whole. I believe that bubbles are good to pop, but I also believe that the opposing side has it's own bubbles, and that unless they are both popped, little will be accomplished. If only one is popped, on either side, neither will really come to an understanding with the other.

@Dozebom: Snark and reassertion that 'we are correct, remember?' doesn't help much with where the discussion is at now. I like how mellow this is. It's a nice change. Although I don't know if the specific discussion topic is really relevant to politics per se.

Thank you, MSH, for that wonderful addition, that was incredibly helpful and necessary, not at all motivated by crueler urges...Please don't. >.>

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Hey, I'm already through with the arguing phase, now I'm just cheerleading. Not like these discussions actually have a chance of changing anybody's mind.

[Criptfeind]

To be honest wierd, it sounds like you're not against safe spaces at all. Only ones that... Hell, I'm not even sure. Only ones that are used to harass other people in some way?

[TheBiggerFish]

To be honest wierd, it sounds like you're not against safe spaces at all. Only ones that... Hell, I'm not even sure. Only ones that are used to harass other people in some way?

Yep.

Such things exist, though, which is a shame.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Look, wierd, it actually causes me physical pain to say this, but there's a decent chance you haven't received as much hatred and LGBT-phobia as others have. Can you understand why somebody would want one place, just one place, where they don't have to worry about that? When your parents, your school, everybody around you is telling you that you are sick, bad, wrong, don't you deserve a single spot of respite?

You appear to be arguing that safespace-people won't perceive the homophobes properly; they should be exposed to the homophobia, or else they will just be scary faces in their imaginations. Here's the thing - they are exposed every day to the homophobes, the people who hate them for who they are. These "scary faces" are fucking real. When you say that they shouldn't be allowed to have one place where they are free from that, it makes me wonder if you actually know what people go through.

Spoiler: disclaimer (click to show/hide)

No, I haven't experienced true hatred and discrimination either. No, that doesn't make me a hypocrite. Yes, there's a difference. You're belittling their problems, I'm not.

To be honest wierd, it sounds like you're not against safe spaces at all. Only ones that... Hell, I'm not even sure. Only ones that are used to harass other people in some way?

Safe spaces as shield, safe spaces as sword. Learn it - it's very useful to know the difference and to have a short words as references to the concepts. Shields are good, swords are bad.

[TheBiggerFish]

Look, wierd, it actually causes me physical pain to say this, but there's a decent chance you haven't received as much hatred and LGBT-phobia as others have. Can you understand why somebody would want one place, just one place, where they don't have to worry about that? When your parents, your school, everybody around you is telling you that you are sick, bad, wrong, don't you deserve a single spot of respite?

You appear to be arguing that safespace-people won't perceive the homophobes properly; they should be exposed to the homophobia, or else they will just be scary faces in their imaginations. Here's the thing - they are exposed every day to the homophobes, the people who hate them for who they are. These "scary faces" are fucking real. When you say that they shouldn't be allowed to have one place where they are free from that, it makes me wonder if you actually know what people go through.

Spoiler: disclaimer (click to show/hide)

No, I haven't experienced true hatred and discrimination either. No, that doesn't make me a hypocrite. Yes, there's a difference. You're belittling their problems, I'm not.

To be honest wierd, it sounds like you're not against safe spaces at all. Only ones that... Hell, I'm not even sure. Only ones that are used to harass other people in some way?

Safe spaces as shield, safe spaces as sword. Learn it - it's very useful to know the difference and to have a short words as references to the concepts. Shields are good, swords are bad.

Handy article on that.

[wierd]

I have nothing against finding comfort in a friend, or having a support group. They just can't be divisive or excluding.

Religious people have bible studies. They like visitors.

Churches have unlocked doors. Anyone can go in.

But "you aren't gay, what could you possibly know about how we are treated!? Get out!" Style meetings, where pain and hurt get echoed in a place that feels safe through that exclusion? No. Must not permit. Violence that way. Always.


Doze, I was bullied and beat up in highschool too. Ridiculed for never dating of going to prom. Called gay and faggot for having decidedly female hobbies, like crochet.

I have even been sexually assaulted.

I simply choose not to recoil from it. I want to know why they hate. The why fascinates me more than the what.

[Sprin]

Prolly your bedroom after work or school or whatever you do would work as a "safe space" but confining yourself to one is dangerously unhealthy.

Yah gata face the world or you'll never improve yourself

[wierd]

Prolly your bedroom after work or school or whatever you do would work as a "safe space" but confining yourself to one is dangerously unhealthy.

Yah gata face the world or you'll never improve yourself

Amen.

I am triggered, I guess, because in my efforts to understand the hate, I have found success.  I understand hate and evil more than I ever thought possible.

Often, the person who throws bottles, does so because they are afraid. The hate comes from the fear of change, the fear of the destruction of a way of life.

I saw it when lgbt people were super smug over the supreme court victory. It fueled hate, by being smugly offensive to people who just had their world change.

I see it now on the other foot, as trump, an insane house and senate, and likely a GOP dominated supreme court tear the lgbt community's world down.  The lgbt feels the world ending fear that religious hetero people did then.

Which group went on the bigger nation wide rampage?

Understand why it made me mad?

Understand why I reject further division?

The way to survive this is to deny pence, and others like him what they need to justify their actions. When we riot, when we ridicule their faith, when we smugly rub their noses in progressive victories, we create people like him, and make the cause of that hate very strong. We slam the door of understanding on those people.

To survive, all of us, us and them alike, we have to stop hurting each other, and stop destroying ways of life.

To stop "reprogramming" initiatives like pence has endorsed, we have to reach moderate people who just want the culture war to end. We gave to stop being radical, and be just normal. When people are cruel to us, we need to understand why, and work to remove those reasons why.

Polarizing, crawling into echo chambers, and losing our damned minds is not the way forward.

If we want to survive the next 4 to 8 years, we will need the help of normal straight people and religious people. It must be sincere.