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[PTTG??]

Care to provide any evidence for your assertions that Clinton is a Illuminati secret master? Or is she so good that she doesn't leave any evidence?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

See, this is what I'm fucking talking about. Clinton manages to meet the standard of Probably-Not-Literally-A-Rapist and any criticism of her becomes conspiracy theory.

Clinton charges immense speaking fees to grace people with her presence, is mired in connections to Goldman Sachs and the like, and has so much internal party influence that the only people who even bothered to join the primary were a non-Democrat socialist and a random ponce. None of this sort of thing is alright. It's normal, but it's not alright.

God knows we've seen from the cable leaks that she's exactly what she portrays her self to be: A champion of keeping everything the same for the sake of predictability and control. She doesn't take charge of others by way of influence for the sake of dealing with our long-term problems, but she happily trades what is asked. It's what politicians mostly do, nobody does it better than her, and it's messed up.

None of it is secret either, it's at best obscured. Trump's presence has fried people's fucking brains into forgetting what's acceptable, and letting that become the standard for the next four years is grossly irresponsible.

[birdy51]

You're not wrong. But at the same time, I can at least trust her not to break the litter box of American politics with her bullshit.

[Frumple]

... MSH, "the power and pinnacle of typical corruption" is not just "any criticism." So... yeah.

[Neonivek]

What I find especially odd is people find Trump to be honest... because he doesn't hide his blatant discriminations.

Here is KIND of the thing though... His blatant racism is part of his platform. He isn't going "Illegal Mexicans are criminals" as extra information...

Which... if Hilary HATED Mexicans, lets say she despised them... I'd be happy not to know... Knowing that she isn't passing laws specifically against them.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

... MSH, "the power and pinnacle of typical corruption" is not just "any criticism." So... yeah.

If you play the game, you're engaging in the typical sort of corruption. Lobbyists, primaries, tailored legislation. Making sure everything happens for the sake of the next quarter, and damn the consequences. Clinton's very successes are because of these things. It's the reason why very few businesses or influence groups are endorsing Trump (not that he's helping that).

Fuckin Obama is way less into this sort of thing, and he's helping the police crack some Native American skulls because they don't want their ancestors dug up and water poisoned right now. Good is not good enough. Politicians can be controlled by the people, but only if they think they're constantly on the verge of getting into some serious shit. Clinton skewed left and had to keep skewing left even after the primary to keep Sanders voters.

So yeah, that's what the point of all this is. The narrative cannot be allowed to become "allegations of bad behavior by Clinton are just misogynists and Trump voters whining", which is what it is becoming thanks to fucking Trump. I'm almost more afraid of that than I am of the off-chance Trump wins the election.

Oh no she charges fees to give speeches to various groups whatever will we do all hope is lost oh no...


Not that I disagree on the point about her having massive party sway, I just seriously disagree on the speeches.

Nobody's dinner speech is worth a hundred thousand dollars.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

They're paying that much because a handshake and a quiet word with Hillary Clinton meant something even before she started trying to be President. At least, I fucking hope that's what they're paying for.

Also, the problem with your stance is that you're right back into the political nihilists "wring your hands and do nothing but complain" camp. You said it needs a revolutionary to fix the problem. Why can't that be you?

I am not a political nihilist. I'm telling you that popular engagement with the system is indeed what we should be doing at this juncture, so that Clinton has to watch her ass whenever she's going to pull something shady. And everybody else in the government, but if we could at least get that going with the President it'd be good shit.

Believe me, I'd love to be the person who changes everything, but I'm not conceited enough to believe that's real or going to be me if it is. I do what I can, when I can, and that's just all there is. Also, I don't want to die, that's a pretty strong motivation.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

All retired Presidents have power, at least for a while. They're an inroads to the party structure that, generally, is someone who ensures that your interest will at least be listened to.

There are of course exceptions, like Reagan due to Alzheimer's or Dubya due to pressing the eject seat on politics, but in general.

EDIT: Did you just imply that trying to change the system for the better would get you killed?

Believe me, I'd love to be the person who changes everything, but I'm not conceited enough to believe that's real or going to be me if it is. I do what I can, when I can, and that's just all there is. Also, I don't want to die, that's a pretty strong motivation.

Emphasis mine.

It's far from impossible. Every government kills people who they want out of the way, some much more than others, but nobody is ever completely safe. Failing to recognize that is just naive. I doubt it's likely I would be domestically assassinated by the US government, but there's been plenty of people who have gone overseas and never come back.

Even western governments do this from time to time. There was the Earth First lady who got carbombed, the Americans who have been droned while outside the west, the guy who Blair's government in the UK definitely killed and called a suicide. Getting the ire of powerful people isn't the best idea.

And, of course, there's secondaries as well. If the government calls the police to investigate you over and over again while portraying you as a dangerous radical, then they can just hope you get put out of the way. Not necessarily by being killed either, just imprisoned or drained of resources by legal fights. There's also all the people who have been locked out of the US by being placed on the no-fly list after leaving, ensuring that they can practically never return even with citizenship.

[smjjames]

It's not so much the dinner speeches than the appearance of pay-for-play (or perhaps, pay to win). There's no absolute smoking gun that says 'if I pay you X, will you do Y favor for me?', sure, and there's no evidence of her tending to grant favors, but it just smacks of shady and I don't like it. Even if it is normal politics.

Clinton charges immense speaking fees to grace people with her presence, is mired in connections to Goldman Sachs and the like, and has so much internal party influence that the only people who even bothered to join the primary were a non-Democrat socialist and a random ponce.

More like three random ponces, one of them just managed to hang on longer.

[Frumple]

The people paying that much seem to disagree.

People disagree, yeah. I'd disagree, personally, particularly in the face of anything resembling a market. Scarcity est, and there's bloody close to nothing on this planet as scarce as someone with the clinton's history and experience. Value, too, and those same things bring a hell of a lot to the table. Some folks' time really is worth a metric shitton.

Also, msh, you might notice that narrative you're burbling about isn't being repeated, here. The allegations of misdeeds are being challenged but it's for damned different reasons than whatever the blazes you're trying to construct.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I really wish this forum didn't have an edit function.

[Rolan7]

I really wish this forum didn't have an edit function.

It is getting a little crazy in this thread, yeah
not that I'm one to talk, I edit like half the things I post within the invisibility timer (such that no "edited" notification appears).
I try to use preview but things just look different in it, due to margins.  And also some threads move fast so there's an incentive to post early post often.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

4 or 5 cases of the government doing bad shit to the opposition does not match up with the 1000's of cases where they didn't.

They don't usually because the system we've set up encourages them not to by providing alternatives. The gun is still the final measure, and for the most powerful organization in the world bar none, you have to ask "why not", not "why"?

People who advocate for total restructuring aren't generally integrated with the system, since those things are strongly opposed. If you can defeat your opponent with an election, you don't need to resort to anything else. If the ideas your opponent spreads are turning people from you outside of that context, it's time to call in the boots and dissuade them. Failure to be dissuaded leads to harsher reprisal.

This isn't some radical idea I'm putting forth here. This is Power 101. Fucking Chris "Donald Why No GF Pls" Christie used the traffic system to harass his opponents.

[sluissa]

Even without getting to outright death. If you make too many waves, it's very likely you have SOME sort of dirt to be dug up and ruin your life with by exposing it to everyone.

[SalmonGod]

Even western governments do this from time to time. There was the Earth First lady who got carbombed, the Americans who have been droned while outside the west, the guy who Blair's government in the UK definitely killed and called a suicide. Getting the ire of powerful people isn't the best idea.

And, of course, there's secondaries as well. If the government calls the police to investigate you over and over again while portraying you as a dangerous radical, then they can just hope you get put out of the way. Not necessarily by being killed either, just imprisoned or drained of resources by legal fights. There's also all the people who have been locked out of the US by being placed on the no-fly list after leaving, ensuring that they can practically never return even with citizenship.

MOVE bombing?  Fairly recent and blatant example of politically undesirables getting murdered by the state within the continental USA.  Not orchestrated by upper levels of government, as far as I'm aware, and not terribly covert.  But still somehow not widely known that an entire urban community was literally firebombed by authorities.  And this isn't some shit from the 50's.  How many of you know about it.  How many of the people you know know about it?

I'm aware that it's this exact style of thinking that gets me labeled a conspiracy theorist, but when I see cases like thus that are so egregious, yet still so widely unknown, I can't help but take that as indication of high probability that plenty other such things happen which are equally unknown.

It doesn't take much to get away with things like this.  Why do journalists get so heavy targeted whenever anything controversial is going on?  Things don't have to be kept secret to be kept irrelevant.  So long as exposure can be limited, something that's a big deal will look like not so much amidst a sea of distractions, and easily forgotten