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[Frumple]

Well, the republican party schisming would be a nice start. Regardless of whatever other ideological concerns they (and conservatives in general) may have, the party has specifically been working to undermine a functioning government for decades. You can't get much done when you've got folks campaigning to get into power and then fuck things up so the government looks bad, and that's more or less been a cornerstone of their practical implementation for at least as long as I've been alive. Get folks to knock that shit off (or at least marginalize 'em, so you can get people making most decisions that aren't bad faith actors) and you might just see things getting better.

All other problems are problems, but that one of our major political parties is intentionally sabotaging our country to create an ideological point really is the goddamn elephant in the room so far as actual improvement (or at least renormalization/stability) goes.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalės]

The fact that this could be spun into claiming that Trump is worse than Hitler has not been lost on me.

I would dispute that. An evil genius is worse than an evil idiot. An evil genius can pretend to be idiotic, but an evil idiot cannot pretend to be a genius. An evil genius thus has all the options that an evil idiot does, plus more, and additionally has the intelligence to use them.

[smjjames]

god, the lying and corruption from both camps just
keeps
coming

like, you would think there would be a point where it would stop coming but
no

it never runs out
it's to the point people don't care anymore

Yeah, I can see Clinton getting indicted and impeached for corruption or something at some point. Especially if the Republicans maintain control of the House.

With Clinton, it's like seeing the seedy underbelly of politics and wondering how much of it is done by everybody else and normal and how much of it isn't. With Trump, it's obvious that he is a greedy, authoritarian, narcissistic, *bunch of other words*.

For me, the key here is to keep Trump from getting the White House and voting Clinton also means that we could end up with a President Kaine.

This entire election is a screwed up mess....... We usually look at other countries and say 'at least we aren't like that.', and yet, here we are. What next? Actual fistfights in Congress?

[Dozebôm Lolumzalės]

You know, if you want a President Kaine that badly, you 2nd Amendment folks out there...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Because the 2nd Amendment is obviously permission to go around threatening people with guns, or maybe assassinating them. Yes. Definitely. That is exactly what the founding fathers wanted.

[smjjames]

You know, if you want a President Kaine that badly, you 2nd Amendment folks out there...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Because the 2nd Amendment is obviously permission to go around threatening people with guns, or maybe assassinating them. Yes. Definitely. That is exactly what the founding fathers wanted.

FYI, I'm not a gun fanatic

[Dozebôm Lolumzalės]

I know, I'm just pretending to be Trump

[smjjames]

Anyways, the chances of an Electoral College and popular vote split have been increasing. In other words, a la 2000.

While the situation and surrounding environment isn't the same and this time could go either way (with Clinton losing EC and winning popular vote being more likely), it could very well spur more discussion and desire to remove or reform the EC system.

[scriver]

In other news, the democratic party's office in Ohio was hit by manure, again. Four years ago they were already beset by a mountain of manure at their front door, and today, a police officer on patrol again encountered a mountain of manure at the office's doorstep.

All bets on it being a Frenchman.

[Frumple]

Yeah, I can see Clinton getting indicted and impeached for corruption or something at some point. Especially if the Republicans maintain control of the House.

With Clinton, it's like seeing the seedy underbelly of politics and wondering how much of it is done by everybody else and normal and how much of it isn't.

Bloody thing is the more we see dug up on her the less seediness people are actually finding. There's been as damn near to zero as I can recall of actually substantiated underbelly shown by goddamn everything that's been dug up on clinton. Unless folks actually dig up something worth something, a corruption indictment against clinton at this point would be the sodding corruption. Literally the worst they've actually found is somewhat shoddy IT security, and that's a trait that's been demonstrated by much of the friggin' government (by bloody everyone, really -- similar stuff's been endemic to business et al since the internet started entrenching).

All the screeching in the world doesn't actually turn normal political cruft into something abnormal. No matter how much it's repeated.

[PTTG??]

I know people who say "I don't like trump at all, he seems like a terrible person... but Hillary is just as bad, and I don't like all of her... crimes."

And yet when I ask them what crimes, they say "I dunno, it's all anyone says about her."

[Sergarr]

I recall there being some stuff in one of the newer bunch of hacked emails, about Bill's paid speeches coinciding with some financial transfers to recommended-by-Clinton infrastructural projects in Haiti, but that's 'bout it. "Major corruption" this isn't.

I know people who say "I don't like trump at all, he seems like a terrible person... but Hillary is just as bad, and I don't like all of her... crimes."

And yet when I ask them what crimes, they say "I dunno, it's all anyone says about her."

It's pretty indicative that the Republicans' strategy of "flinging lies at Hillary and hope that at least something will stick" and Trump's strategy of "drown himself in his own lies and hope that it'll all slide off due to no one believing that a single person could lie so much" both seem to be working to a frighteningly huge extent.

[Rolan7]

I know people who say "I don't like trump at all, he seems like a terrible person... but Hillary is just as bad, and I don't like all of her... crimes."

And yet when I ask them what crimes, they say "I dunno, it's all anyone says about her."

Same, and it's driving me up the wall.  Trump quintuples-down on lies, until the factchecking is drowned out in his increasingly outlandish claims.
He's literally a troll given attention

Clinton gets accused of so many things, most of which are just plain bullshit.  Then there are a few things where there's a reasonable chance she made mistakes...  And those arguable cases let people just believe all the bullshit, when they already wanted to.

Even ignoring her opponent Trump, who is just a horrific joke, I'm still proud to have voted for her instead of third party (this year).  She has a long, strong record with an few understandable imperfections.

[smjjames]

Yeah, so many things are being said as corruption that it's hard to tell what's actually corruption and what's actually not in Clinton's case.

There's nothing blatantly corrupt or illegal with Clinton, just shady stuff that is just shy of blatant corruption. That and me wondering how normal all of those activities with money being thrown around is.

[alway]

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13474116/clinton-prime-directive
"Clinton’s critics know she’s guilty, they're just trying to decide what she's guilty of"
Basically, this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Let's not delude ourselves here. Trump is worse than Clinton in nearly every meaningful way, including corruption, and must not become President. This doesn't mean that Clinton is not corrupt. Though she does not generally engage in the same kind of stupidity Trump does, she is a problem precisely because of the standard we've set up for politics.

Clinton "isn't corrupt" because we're used to applying a discount to the corruption of politicians since they're virtually all corrupt in the ways the system encourages them to be. The rarity of exceptions make them seem like absolute paragons, but mostly this is used to differentiate the typically corrupt from the exceptionally corrupt since that does matter.

Hillary Clinton doesn't seem exceptionally corrupt in any way that can be held up to scrutiny, but she is absolutely the power and pinnacle of typical corruption. She might be better at it than any other major political figure in the USA. I have no doubt that as President she'll have plenty of people killed when it won't cause riots (so mostly people not in a Western country at the time) and will happily coordinate with Congress to sell us off body and mind to transnational corporations.

She's shown her position plenty that she is no revolutionary, but unfortunately a revolutionary is what we need now. The standards of the current world model are going to destroy humanity environmentally if not socially. What with the US being a hyperpower, our leadership matters the most of all in affecting this. The way things have been going, we're not going to see the global rise of Russia, India, China, or Europe anytime soon.

Unfortunately, this is where we fucking are. I voted for her, god help me, but even here and now we have a responsibility not to forget what she is and that she is not someone who can be let off the leash. Absolute scrutiny is my exchange for selling my soul to the Clinton Foundation. Fortunately, the Republicans might shatter into a million pieces after this election, so that could be better received than it is normally.

Unless Trump wins, in which case I'm dedicating the remainder of my life to finding a place on an orbital for me and mine.