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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1393579 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7185 on: October 15, 2016, 10:18:09 pm »

The issue is that... We are kind of collapsing in the oil market and are playing it DANGEROUSLY CLOSE to having a market crash.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7186 on: October 15, 2016, 10:19:41 pm »

MSH, I happen to agree that subsidies are better spent improving the economies of scale on renewables then tax write offs for fossil fuels but I dont think your argument is addressing that.  US tax code has tons of tax expenditures.  The fossil fuels industry is massive.  A massive industry in a country with a lot of tax expenditures is going to get a lot of them.  Yes we could reform the tax code to clean up all the tax breaks, both in general and for fossil fuels.  But it's getting them because it's big while renewables aren't.  In not too many years renewables will grow to be a similar size to fossil fuels and then they will be getting all the tax breaks.

Token additions to solar doesn't mean jack shit

Solar power is growing at an exponential rate.  It is a form of manufacturing where economies of scale are very important.

The issue is that... We are kind of collapsing in the oil market and are playing it DANGEROUSLY CLOSE to having a market crash.

We might have a couple more years of cheap oil.  Oh no?
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7187 on: October 15, 2016, 10:20:54 pm »

We might have a couple more years of cheap oil.  Oh no?

Well the issue is more that we are entirely reliant on oil to... well... function. :P
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Flying Dice

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7188 on: October 15, 2016, 10:22:07 pm »

Token additions to solar doesn't mean jack shit

Solar power is growing at an exponential rate.  It is a form of manufacturing where economies of scale are very important.

Congratulations on ignoring the entirety of the substance of my post in favor of the one softball statement that you could address from the base you'd already established. I guess centrist Dems are good at ignoring progressives while pretending to address their concerns, eh?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7189 on: October 15, 2016, 10:32:19 pm »

Solar (and wind, for that matter) have indeed hit the takeoff curve, which is all the more reason for them to get substantive government support. Given such during the takeoff period, they could advance to be the primary of our energy in record time.

Which is good, because if we don't do that we're in big trouble.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7190 on: October 15, 2016, 10:32:56 pm »

Are you sure you wanna be painting yourself as a progressive here, Dice?
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7191 on: October 15, 2016, 10:35:15 pm »

Solar (and wind, for that matter) have indeed hit the takeoff curve, which is all the more reason for them to get substantive government support. Given such during the takeoff period, they could advance to be the primary of our energy in record time.

Which is good, because if we don't do that we're in big trouble.

Yeah I just heard that they VERY recently become much more viable as opposed to their previous "Super inefficient, very expensive, high maintenance" incarnation.

And we have finally learned our lesson that Wind power is not a non-polluting resource.

I still think Nuclear kicks its butt and it gets a undeserved (ok... KIND of deserved) reputation due to ill-management...
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7192 on: October 15, 2016, 10:38:55 pm »

Nuclear does not deserve any of the reputation, the coal industry amazingly transferred all the negative public image they earned onto the nuclear industry. Coal is awful and should be feared and has a huge death toll, not nuclear.
I can't answer the "enough" part though.  The world heats up but not as much as it might.  I dont know if that is enough or not.
Well, the AMO trending back towards negative combined with the behavior of the Sun over the last few solar cycles does not seem as conducive towards supporting the "thermal end of the world" scenario over the next decade or so as it was thirty years ago.
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alway

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7193 on: October 15, 2016, 10:41:36 pm »

I mean, the thing is,

I mean the thing is, the bootstrapping is already taking place.  As evidenced for instance by the major party candidate whose plan is that solar alone adds 10% of current US capacity for all electricity in four years.

Token additions to solar doesn't mean jack shit if she gives the wink and nod to the companies which are continuing to increase production even as they're forced to tap into markedly more difficult deposits.

Either you're drinking the cool-aid because she's your horse in this race, or you legitimately don't understand what peak oil means. Small increases to solar is less than what we should have been doing fifty or sixty years ago. It's the same bullshit as the centrist money-grubbers are trying to feed us on the ecology side, making recycling programs and moderate reductions in carbon emissions out to be massive, sweeping changes when they're basic entry-level efforts being tossed out half a century behind the curve to appease people who actually care about things beyond the next few decades.

This isn't even funny, it's on the same level as promising free state-funded cold medicine and pretending that that's equivalent to comprehensive public healthcare.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/climate/
Read them before attacking people with the strawmen you've invented in place of Clinton's plans.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7194 on: October 15, 2016, 10:55:51 pm »

Congratulations on ignoring the entirety of the substance of my post in favor of the one softball statement that you could address from the base you'd already established.

Well gee, maybe you shouldn't have raised the argument?

I'll be honest with you, I didn't read your post to the end.  When I read the first line and it's a sweeping declaration of something that has already been questioned, I dont have high expectations for the post.  When the second line starts by personally insulting me then yeah, your post is bad and you should feel bad, I'm not reading any more of your trash.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Dostoevsky

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7195 on: October 15, 2016, 11:27:49 pm »

As a person with experience in the environmental/energy and congressional space, a few comments:

- I haven't seen a recent Congressional Budget Office score, but other federal sources have put the total value of 'tax expenditures' (that is, lost revenue from tax breaks) for fossil fuels at roughly $40 billion over 10 years (i.e. $4 billion per year). There are other forms of subsidy, of course (e.g. Dept. of Energy spends a little under $1 billion per year on research and the like, for example) but $100 billion per year sounds much higher than other numbers I've seen.

- Following on that point, solar and wind currently do have pretty significant subsidies on the whole; by some metrics they receive more per year than fossil fuels at this point. That said, if one considers in terms of total subsidies received over the years, fossil fuel energy has received magnitudes more than cleaner energy sources.

- Going a bit further, it doesn't get a lot of attention but last year's extensions of the Production and Investment Tax Credits for (most) wind and solar is still a big deal. More investments in clean generation are great, certainly, but at this point there are other parts to consider. 'Modern' grids, energy transmission improvements, much better energy efficiency, etc. - all these and more will play crucial parts in getting real GHG reductions, not just building solar panels and wind farms.

- Practically speaking, without trillions of dollars and/or much higher energy bills the U.S. isn't going to be able to fully curtail fossil fuel usage by 2030 (2050 won't exactly be easy either). Considering that we only have so many years and the political will to do something truly massive in scope just isn't there, I'd argue it's better to focus on more viable paths to reducing GHG emissions than shooting for the moon. This isn't to say we shouldn't bother trying for the big things, but it's sensible to have lots of contingency plans.

- Regarding 'clean coal', carbon capture & sequestration (CCS) is (more or less) a thing. While it's true that several of the high-profile CCS plant projects haven't panned out awesomely, there are other forms of CCS application that are more proven. While not preferable to proper clean energy, as a transition tool I'd argue CCS may turn out pretty important. CCS can also be applied in the natural gas context, so getting it right helps even if the U.S. suddenly stopped all coal usage. (and yes, CCS only addresses carbon pollution - coal emits lots of other horrible things, and even if you use scrubbers you still have to deal with the coal ash. So CCS can help but doesn't magically make coal 'clean'.)

- Nuclear's tricky. Lots of reasons, but two of note are 1) the U.S. still has no long-term nuclear waste repository and there's yet to be a community willing to stand up and take all that waste, and 2) as we've seen a few times so far, while nuclear 'problems' are rare they're still not quite worth rounding to zero given the damage that can be caused. I'm not anti-nuclear myself, but... it's really tricky.

- A carbon tax has appeals, but it also has major risks. There are plenty of folks out there trying to use a carbon tax to preempt EPA (or other) standards while keeping the price low enough to not drive the reductions needed (which, unless you write the bill with a proper backstop, wouldn't actually be guaranteed by any carbon price). I'll avoid going into detail, but it's looking likely there will be some significant risks here within the next 6 months - and that's if Clinton is elected. (No need to mention Trump's stance.)

- Even if the Dems retake the Senate and Hillary wins the presidency, unless the Republican party completely implodes it's going to be an awful time next session. Most of the House Rs who'll lose in November will be the moderates, leaving a more radical Republican House majority and Republican House leadership less able to resist the most unpleasant people of the hard-right faction. This is also a House Republican majority that has been actively hating Clinton for several years going - her becoming President is likely to make them more dedicated to taking her down and pursuing a scorched-earth strategy. Don't expect the drought of legislative activity to end, I guess I'm saying.

Finally, I'll just note to those who might be left here contemplating a Trump vote: setting aside everything else about his policies and character, a President Trump would likely mean a Republican House & Senate, which in turn would mean a reconciliation bill the likes of which we've never seen. Long story short, reconciliation means no filibuster, which means the minority party gets no voice and no influence on the process. Existing rules limit the scope of what can count, but some Republicans in Congress think they've found a way to change how things are calculated in a way to massively increase the scope. It's a little harsh to say this, but given the current state of the Republican party I would rather not give them a legislative blank check at this point in time.
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7196 on: October 15, 2016, 11:56:01 pm »

Oh lord, so I've read a lot of early Jojo but never quite noticed it until seeing it on Toonami tonight.

You thought it was going to be debate with a politically informed opponent, but really, it was me, DioTrump!
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7197 on: October 16, 2016, 12:07:27 am »

... seriously though, y'all should stop connecting that shitstain with right and proper villains. First it was kefka, now it's dio -- this ain't right, folks. Show a little respect for the fictional characters. They don't deserve this kinda' treatment.
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7198 on: October 16, 2016, 12:09:08 am »

Hey, Dio likes to kiss women without their approval, troll his enemies, and cry when foiled... just saying, we'd probably be better off with an immortal time-freezing vampire godling like Dio than a 2-bit wannabe.
- Nuclear's tricky. Lots of reasons, but two of note are 1) the U.S. still has no long-term nuclear waste repository and there's yet to be a community willing to stand up and take all that waste, and 2) as we've seen a few times so far, while nuclear 'problems' are rare they're still not quite worth rounding to zero given the damage that can be caused. I'm not anti-nuclear myself, but... it's really tricky.
God dammit, this surprised the shit out of me because I was really sure that the Yucca site was supposed to be up and running originally in the late 90's and I recall Bush making steps towards getting it finished, but hadn't followed up on it much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository

It actually ran out of funding in 2010, and was provided none to replace it during the 2011 budget shit.

How is it that the party which is supposed to be trying to get us away from oil is so utterly fucking stupid regarding the best immediate option, and the long term needs for our existing waste?
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7199 on: October 16, 2016, 12:15:01 am »

You're not wrong, but you're also damning with faint praise -- I've seen my cats cough up things we'd be better off with than trump. Not right to be putting dio on the same level as housecat expulsion, y'know?
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