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[Starver]

Trump has many people under him (consentually!) who deal with the minutiae, it's not a Two-Horse Town's beauty pageant where the local church minister, sherriff, mayor and store-manager must organse the entire school prom (and that's just the one person, with all those hats).

He has the privilege to wander round his own building, freely, but not the right to go into areas set aside for privacy without at least knocking, and ideally sending/alerting ahead the underling or under-underling responsible for such segregation to make it known that he's visiting if he has to go there himself in the first place. (So maybe he wants to make sure they are comfortable, but someone needs to tell him that his sudden unannounced presence is uncomfortable, and having nobody willing to do that shows that his organisation is too totalitarian...)

And if I don't mind people admiring my finely turned ankle, the gracefulness of my neck or even the curvaciousness of my bikini-clad breasts and hips, that doesn't imply (even if any of this applied to me) that I'm equally happy to have my bare hooch perved at.

As someone I know says, who cosplays in sometimes very skimpy costumes ('slave-girl Leia', for example), it's her choice to show a lot of thigh and a preponderance of cleavage, but "nobody's seeing nipples or noo-noo outside of the bedroom"...

(14 new replies...)

[nenjin]

Although let's not pretend that people in beauty pageants aren't consenting to ogling.

I'm not so sure about this.  A woman in attractive clothes in an office full of sexist men might expect to be ogled but I dont consider that her consenting to ogling just for wearing attractive clothing.  Yes a woman in a swimsuit contest is consenting to being judged on her appearance but so is a man or woman in a bodybuilding contest.

Maybe this argument would make sense back in the 50s but it's $CURRENT_YEAR and we have an internet full of pornography.  If you want to ogle women then there are plenty of women who did consent to being ogled just one google search away.  Anyone who ogles pageants instead of porn is doing it wrong.

I'm just going to posit that looking at ladies in real life is a different experience doing it on the internet.

[Calidovi]

Although let's not pretend that people in beauty pageants aren't consenting to ogling.

I'm not so sure about this.  A woman in attractive clothes in an office full of sexist men might expect to be ogled but I dont consider that her consenting to ogling just for wearing attractive clothing.  Yes a woman in a swimsuit contest is consenting to being judged on her appearance but so is a man or woman in a bodybuilding contest.

Maybe this argument would make sense back in the 50s but it's $CURRENT_YEAR and we have an internet full of pornography.  If you want to ogle women then there are plenty of women who did consent to being ogled just one google search away.  Anyone who ogles pageants instead of porn is doing it wrong.

That doesn't really answer the question he asked.

Are people in pageants consenting to ogling? It may or may not be stupid for someone to ogle them in currentYear, but do the models agree to it? Judging by your swimsuit part of the response, they agree, right?

Just lurking in the argument here.

[nenjin]

I feel like we need a real life E3 Booth Babe in here to answer these questions. Forget beauty pageants, I think a place like that is way more of an example of what we're talking about here. If pageant contestants are up on a stage above the crowds, booth babes in the trenches.

For me, I accept a woman's right to use her body to be provocative when she wants it to be, and not when she wants it to be. Guys want to take the position that if you ever put it out there, it's out there for all time. And while I can't deny a part of my guyness sees that as slightly hypocritical of women but hey, it's not like the male gender doesn't get to be hypocritical as fuck on a daily basis too.

[Starver]

I'm just going to posit that looking at ladies in real life is a different experience doing it on the internet.

Does this mean I shouldn't be waving a mouse around with one hand whilst the other is busy...  Busy..?

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

That's some amazing logic you've cooked up where a woman demanding the right to not be touched or have sexual comments made to her is THEM being aggressive.

You want to talk about rights, what about a man's right to free speech? Ever since democrats got up on their high horses about sexual assault, all I've heard from them is how we need to control what people can and cannot say. You all keep trying to make this issue about actions, but it's actually about words, and in this country people are allowed to say whatever they feel like saying no matter how crass.

There is no credible evidence that Donald Trump harassed anybody. All he did was have a private conversation with a friend on a bus, and now Hillary's party are turning it into a far bigger issue than what it really is. Honestly, the amount of slander and lies that have come out in the recent days is far more disgusting than Trump's overly honest dialogue.

Really, this is all I can say.

[mainiac]

judging by your swimsuit part of the response, they agree, right?

It was not my intent for it to be read that way.

They are consenting to being judged by their appearance.  But judging someone by their appearance isn't ogling them.

[Rolan7]

@Dozebôm Lolumzalìs
I ninja'd you

For me, I accept a woman's right to use her body to be provocative when she wants it to be, and not when she wants it to be. Guys want to take the position that if you ever put it out there, it's out there for all time. And while I can't deny a part of my guyness sees that as slightly hypocritical of women but hey, it's not like the male gender doesn't get to be hypocritical as fuck on a daily basis too.

That's a *really* good distinction...  huh.  I definitely agree.

Edit:  Though of course it's not gender-specific (I understand we were talking about beauty pageant contestants, just saiyan).  It struck close to home, kinda.

[Calidovi]

That's some amazing logic you've cooked up where a woman demanding the right to not be touched or have sexual comments made to her is THEM being aggressive.

You want to talk about rights, what about a man's right to free speech? Ever since democrats got up on their high horses about sexual assault, all I've heard from them is how we need to control what people can and cannot say. You all keep trying to make this issue about actions, but it's actually about words, and in this country people are allowed to say whatever they feel like saying no matter how crass.

There is no credible evidence that Donald Trump harassed anybody. All he did was have a private conversation with a friend on a bus, and now Hillary's party are turning it into a far bigger issue than what it really is. Honestly, the amount of slander and lies that have come out in the recent days is far more disgusting than Trump's overly honest dialogue.

Really, this is all I can say.

Exactly.

If Hillary promoting the clip upsets you, remember that she is not to blame. To blame are the voters that care about the remarks and exercise their rights by remembering that video while casting a ballot.

If no one cared, this wouldn't be a problem. But people do care, and so this is important and newsworthy. You can argue that this is some Fahrenheit 451 type stuff, but that's how our system works.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

The polite, non-pervy thing to do would be to announce he was coming in so they could get dressed. Instead he's just happily barging in one women, some underage, because he has to inspect things.

Legal or not, "part of the job" or not, this just doesn't sit well with me.

So, your an expert on the backstage scene of beauty pageants then? You know what timetables they work under and can thus determine what expectations can reasonably be put forth regarding the access rights of management? I very much doubt it.

Also I find it quite amusing that you are going to such lengths to defend the right of beauty pageant contestants to not be looked upon in a lewd manner. I'm pretty sure they were expecting that sort of thing when they signed up.

"If she wore such a short skirt, she must have wanted it anyway."

So when someone cries 'Witch!' you think everybody should just pull out their torches and pitchforks and start burning every woman they can catch, huh? Don't make the burden of proof out to be a bad thing.

When you spend your time EARNESTLY (remember, Trump is the straight talker no bullshit no dissembling candidate right?) talking about how you get off on sacrificing babies and then someone in your neighborhood reports a missing child.......then yes, grab your fucking pitchforks...

So you grab the witch, tie her to a stake and listen to her scream as her flesh chars and melts away, confident that evil is being justly punished. Then ten minutes after the fires burn out, the mother of the missing baby comes out and announces that she found the infant had crawled behind a bookcase and was taking a nap the whole time.
But hey, that girl had it coming for talking about how she could get away with sacrificing babies, right? After all, none of the people you know talk like that, so clearly she must have been guilty of something.

Dude. Nobody's killing Trump. And he has said that he went into dressing rooms and looked at naked underage girls without their permission, that's pretty clear evidence.

[SalmonGod]

All forms of management even.

inb4 SG posts about how all the managers he's ever met are collectible Donald Trump figurines.

Nice

I've worked under a couple that sucked, and got away from as quick as I could.  But really I've had 3 managers that I directly reported to, who I've really liked.  Confirmation that you don't need to be a Trump figuring to be a manager.  I've been a manager myself for coming up on 2 years now.  But the majority of managers every place I've worked were horrible and fucked up the work environment for everyone, including those who didn't directly report to them.  And every manager I've known who was above directly overseeing operations has been horrible.

My perspective on low-level management is that it only exists to serve as a hate-buffer between workers and the people actually making decisions.  The majority of them just embrace it and roll that shit downhill without giving a fuck.  The good ones do whatever they can to act as a shit umbrella, and they're out there.  I try to be one of them, but it is taking time to learn how to be effective at it.

And, honestly, at this point I think Folly is just trolling us. He's getting a ton of responses for everything he says after all, so I think I'll just ignore him from now on. He's either a troll or his moral guidelines are so far from mine I seriously doubt we could have a useful conversation.

Me too.  He's basically turned himself into a caricature of every misogyny apologist at this point.

[smjjames]

It's not just the beauty pagent contestants though, it's various other people, those who were meeting him for totally non-sex reasons, his own employees (and stage crew even), and possibly even a random woman on a plane.

Many of them are pagent contestants because that just happens to be a hunting ground, as it were, where he had access to lots of women.

[Rolan7]

My perspective on low-level management is that it only exists to serve as a hate-buffer between workers and the people actually making decisions. 

Hell yeah!  That's one reason I love my manager and am so upset about being let go-

The majority of them just embrace it and roll that shit downhill without giving a fuck.  The good ones do whatever they can to act as a shit umbrella, and they're out there.  I try to be one of them, but it is taking time to learn how to be effective at it.

o7
(salute)

[Frumple]

For what it's worth, we do have the accounts of some of the pageant contestants trump walked in on. They pretty clearly communicate that a guy walking into the backstage dressing area is really bloody abnormal.

E: By whatever nonexistent gods are listening, let this be isolated. Bloody hell.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Wow, actual, literal neo-Crusaders. Anybody wanna bet at least one of them is anti-Catholic?