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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1419059 times)

Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Why was a Hillary presidency important anyway?
Because Hillary is !Trump.
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

MetalSlimeHunt

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Something tells me that, given Bernie was marching against brutal police when he was young and has served in government for decades, that he's not a "rampant idealist". It is possible to have principles in spite of bullshit, as revolutionary as most people find that concept. No, let's just get more and more edgy until we implode in self-hatred on a societal level.

More importantly, Sanders represents the more wide-ranging unitary element of the Democrats, which is what gets used when they actually feel like winning elections so, you know.

I could tolerate this back when it was for the good of backing the obvious alternative to Trump, but we see how well that went. The pound of flesh I'm taking has "Told You So" written on it. It was what I feared in the back of my mind against all reason when Clinton got the nom and the DNC shit went down, and it actually came to pass.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Rolan7

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As if the typical Republican voter would have preferred a clearly idealistic self-described socialist after 8 years of supposed liberalism.  They layed the blame on us, like they layed the blamed on Bush and will lay it on Trump.  Our best hope was a moderate, but nobody cares enough to tell the difference between Hillary and an Independent Socialist outsider.

If Sanders did manage to win, it would have been due to the growing "fuck everything" faction.  The Tea Party and the "Sanders lost?  He was cheated!  Imma vote Trump as if he isn't the exact opposite!!"

Sorry if that was insensitive, my new year's resolution is to stop being such a baby about offending morons.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Sergarr

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Bernie would've been smashed in the general election, though. AFAIH, the only Democrats that got in Senate and House this election season are the "moderate" Blue Dog types, everyone who Sanders supported have failed miserably.
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._.

Rolepgeek

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here's some interesting analysis on the malware. steps are replicable, don't know if they're correct in conclusions tho, as I've no intention of doing that much work to validate the claim

https://www.wordfence.com/blog/2016/12/russia-malware-ip-hack/

tldr muh 17 intelligence agencies believes stock for sale code from ukraine == russian hackers

Why would the FBI -- who actively interceded in the election in support of Trump -- turn around and say that he's a Russian stooge unless they had some pretty clear evidence?
Well - and I'm not sure about this - but just maybe, just maybe....it's not a conspiracy? And is actually just expected incompetence/failures from intelligence agencies? Because their job is difficulty and easy to get things wrong?

Also, not sure a moderate is the right way to go with things. :/ It seems like you either get partisanship or corruption. >.<
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Sincerely, Role P. Geek

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Rolan7

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Bernie would've been smashed in the general election, though. AFAIH, the only Democrats that got in Senate and House this election season are the "moderate" Blue Dog types, everyone who Sanders supported have failed miserably.
Exactly.  Everyone expected a surge for progressives, but it turns out that "thanks Obama" works.  People actually did (quietly, poll-wise) blame him, and the liberals, for the last 8 years.
And now we get another joker scapegoat to take all the blame for the self-serving conservative plots, just like Bush Jr.
Because *some* people wanted to go gamble on left instead of insuring some decent health insurance.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

MetalSlimeHunt

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As if the typical Republican voter would have preferred a clearly idealistic self-described socialist after 8 years of supposed liberalism.  They layed the blame on us, like they layed the blamed on Bush and will lay it on Trump.  Our best hope was a moderate, but nobody cares enough to tell the difference between Hillary and an Independent Socialist outsider.

If Sanders did manage to win, it would have been due to the growing "fuck everything" faction.  The Tea Party and the "Sanders lost?  He was cheated!  Imma vote Trump as if he isn't the exact opposite!!"

Sorry if that was insensitive, my new year's resolution is to stop being such a baby about offending morons.
This exact play towards the center conventional wisdom is why Clinton lost a race she easily should have won. She presumed that the female, black, and worker votes was hers because she was the moderate and she was a Democrat.

Guess what, the most original sin is to be boring, and that's what Clinton was: boring. Trump punched ten classes above his ability because he was the only exciting person in the race. Nobody went into a booth on that day and was euphoric to vote for the Most Likely Reptilian Overlord 2016, except maniac.

As for the personal attack, have it your way. I certainly won't take offense to your loving embrace of our society's ongoing suicide by mediocrity. Not like we'll live to see it if people don't get their heads out of their asses about convention.
Bernie would've been smashed in the general election, though. AFAIH, the only Democrats that got in Senate and House this election season are the "moderate" Blue Dog types, everyone who Sanders supported have failed miserably.
This simply isn't true. Politics isn't a tug of war between left and right boundaries determining who gets in and who can't. It is often perceived that way due to outcomes, but those outcomes are seen only in the hindsight of the winner. If Clinton had pulled out the race she probably would have also pulled the Senate, even by that 1% margin. Political outcomes are as much a consequence of performance as they are of circumstances, and if there's any candidate for whom victory was not ordained by fundamentals it was Trump.

Sanders polled better than Clinton. Don't give me your what-ifs, because Clinton's overall trend during the election didn't get radically altered by exposure to Trump, and if anything went up.

Sanders also absolutely would have gotten the moderate Democrat vote better, simply because he was more interesting overall and specifically because of his attention to the exact same blue collar economic concerns that a lot of, maybe the most of swing voters went on. Not only that, but there's the Democrat base to consider. Millions of them didn't vote Trump, millions of them just stayed in. Sanders isn't a stay-in kind of guy, especially not for the youth vote.

It's time to face up. He was the right man for the job, and he got passed up for it by the influence of the Clintons. At least their name will be synonymous with "loser" like Bush's until the end of time.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Rolan7

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As for the personal attack, have it your way. I certainly won't take offense to your loving embrace of our society's ongoing suicide by mediocrity. Not like we'll live to see it if people don't get their heads out of their asses about convention.
It's only a personal attack if you supported Sanders then voted for Trump.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Sergarr

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Sanders isn't a stay-in kind of guy, especially not for the youth vote.
So, where were all these people during the primaries? He lost, and lost quite badly, 10:13 million votes or something like that.
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._.

MetalSlimeHunt

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As for the personal attack, have it your way. I certainly won't take offense to your loving embrace of our society's ongoing suicide by mediocrity. Not like we'll live to see it if people don't get their heads out of their asses about convention.
It's only a personal attack if you supported Sanders then voted for Trump.
Uh-huh. Making a post responding to me and signing it with "sorry, I don't care about offending morons". Riiiiiiiiight.
Sanders isn't a stay-in kind of guy, especially not for the youth vote.
So, where were all these people during the primaries? He lost, and lost quite badly, 10:13 million votes or something like that.
Because nobody votes in primaries. They're held in a massively confusing and inconvenient way, as well as being more corrupted by party politics.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Rolan7

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No, I'm serious.
If Sanders did manage to win, it would have been due to the growing "fuck everything" faction.  The Tea Party and the "Sanders lost?  He was cheated!  Imma vote Trump as if he isn't the exact opposite!!"

Sorry if that was insensitive, my new year's resolution is to stop being such a baby about offending morons.
I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking people who flopped from Sanders to Trump.
Which maybe some people here did.  Just saying...  I'm not calling you a moron.  I'm calling them morons.  Important distinction.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Sergarr

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Sanders isn't a stay-in kind of guy, especially not for the youth vote.
So, where were all these people during the primaries? He lost, and lost quite badly, 10:13 million votes or something like that.
Because nobody votes in primaries. They're held in a massively confusing and inconvenient way, as well as being more corrupted by party politics.
So what you're saying is that the only election the "youth vote" cares about is the Emperor's Presidential election? Doesn't speak high of their tenacity, if you ask me. Corrupt or not, a vote is a vote, and primary elections are really important - they decide who gets to the general election, you know.

I don't quite get this "we don't really care" attitude towards an important and unavoidable step in electing your own politicians to power. And it's kind of an attitude that made Democrats lose horribly on a local/state levels - lack of the solid and comprehensive winning movement. This is something you could try stealing from the Republicans - their ideals are undoubtedly bad, but they fight for them quite well.
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hector13

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It's not something likely to change either. The revelation that the higher-ups in the DNC were pushing for a Clinton nomination probably turned off a lot of people to voting in Dem primaries.
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Lord Shonus

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Turnout tends to be extremely poor in Republican primaries also. The reason has nothing to do with corruption, or confusion. For most people in most elections, there's nothing to choose from between the candidates, and they'll be delighted to support any of them against the other parties nominee. At the Presidential level, it is very rare for there to be major policy differences between the two candidates (Sanders is an excellent example - he was almost virulently anti-gun-control for most of his political career (it is practically a third-rail issue in Vermont) but suddenly started advocating it and speaking against bills he supported on the subject when he decided to run for President) and most people don't care that much about the fine details.



To use an example from Russian history, if we assume that the Soviet Union was holding a US-style election to replace Stalin (I am perfectly aware of how ludicrous the idea is, this is an analogy), virtually nobody championing the Stalinist party would care if Molotov or Beria were at the top of the ticket, and would vote for either of them against Khrushchev.
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TempAcc

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Even if the turnout rate is low, Trump won the republican primaries quite handily, which shows that republicans were quite well set on Trump already by that time, while a much bigger divide can be observed in the democrat primaries. When sanders went under, there were a whole lot of people who didn't vote for Hillary in the primaries, while the number of all the people that didn't vote Trump on the republican primaries was much, much smaller by comparison.

This shows that Trump had a well stablished voterbase already among republicans, while Hillary had a ton of people she'd have to convince after the primaries. A lot of center-right and center-left people were going to vote Bernie (center right because of his initial pro military and anti gun control, but he flip flopped in regards to that so that alienated a fair bit of people; the center left people consisted mostly of democrats who hate the clintons and were wary of hillary's past behavior as secretary of state), and Hillary did a pretty bad job of convicing that part of the voterbase.
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