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[Karnewarrior]

The chaos in the Middle East today is a direct result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, followed by the abrupt end of colonialism. The vast wealth potential of oil doesn't help, but the issue is fundamentally no different from the situation in Europe after the collapse of Rome.

Part of why I call it the Arabic Dark Age.

Now if only we could find a way to jumpstart their renaissance so that we don't have to deal with there being a dark age state with the potential for nuclear annihilation of everyone else.

[smjjames]

The chaos in the Middle East today is a direct result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, followed by the abrupt end of colonialism. The vast wealth potential of oil doesn't help, but the issue is fundamentally no different from the situation in Europe after the collapse of Rome.

The west arbitrarily drawing lines that didn't match cultural lines didn't help either. I know one could argue that the multiculturalism in Iraq isn't all that far removed from the US, but we've had centuries to develop an American identity, Iraq hasn't really had a chance to develop it in a cooperative fashion without a dictator or monarch forcing it.

[Sheb]

The chaos in the Middle East today is a direct result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, followed by the abrupt end of colonialism. The vast wealth potential of oil doesn't help, but the issue is fundamentally no different from the situation in Europe after the collapse of Rome.

The west arbitrarily drawing lines that didn't match cultural lines didn't help either. I know one could argue that the multiculturalism in Iraq isn't all that far removed from the US, but we've had centuries to develop an American identity, Iraq hasn't really had a chance to develop it in a cooperative fashion without a dictator or monarch forcing it.

Not really. The mix of Shia and Sunni was already present in the Baghdad eyalet (province) of the Ottoman Empire. Iraq in something like 70-80% Arabs, with most of the rest being Kurds. It's not an impossible mix. There is a religion difference, but from interviews I've read it didn't seem to be that important before Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Iran and others outside actors started playing on these difference to gain influence. (The bombing of the Al-Askari shrine, one of Shia islam's holiest site by Al-Qaeda in Iraq being a primary exemple). Plus, arguing that the West should have kept the sects apart decades ago is kinda ridiculous. After all, the US didn't separate German Catholics and German Protestants after WWII.

No, the lack of a common national identity has more to do with failure of the states, the lingering influence of Panarabism and strongmen who didn't want to create institutions. Look at Libya: it's over 95% Sunni, that didn't stop the state from failing.

[misko27]

The chaos in the Middle East today is a direct result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, followed by the abrupt end of colonialism. The vast wealth potential of oil doesn't help, but the issue is fundamentally no different from the situation in Europe after the collapse of Rome.

So everything is the Ottoman Empire's fault.

Just a reminder. Almost everything wrong in the world is either the Ottoman Empire's fault or Austria's fault (Germany is just Austria's willing executioner). Their empires are dismantled, but their legacy lives on.

[DJ]

Uhm, don't put Austria in the same basket as Ottomans. Everything that is right in the Balkans (which admittedly is a rather short list) is their doing.

[Karnewarrior]

Uhm, don't put Austria in the same basket as Ottomans. Everything that is right in the Balkans (which admittedly is a rather short list) is their doing.

Like most Ex-wives, Austria did a lot of things wrong and very few things right, but still isn't Hitler.

Oh, wait...

[misko27]

Everything that is right in the Balkans (which admittedly is a rather short list) is their doing.

...No. Austria and Russia tie for most responsible for the terrible things that happen in the Balkans that the Ottomans aren't already responsible for. Austria is perhaps one of the least blameless parties of all. Austria-Hungary was an abomination of a state, divided across a dozen ethnic lines, and determined to destroy anything to maintain it's increasingly illegitimate rule in the face of modernity (precisely like the Ottoman Empire). To that end, they doomed millions, and were directly responsible for some of those millions dead, particularly in the Balkans. After all, Serbia suffered the worst casualties of any country in the first world war proportional to its size, and was the only one to suffer worse civilian casualties than military casualties.

Uhm, don't put Austria in the same basket as Ottomans. Everything that is right in the Balkans (which admittedly is a rather short list) is their doing.

Like most Ex-wives, Austria did a lot of things wrong and very few things right, but still isn't Hitler.

Oh, wait...

Austria should consider itself lucky we don't consider them directly responsible for the actions of one Austrian individual (unlike, of course, how they decided to go to war over the actions of an individual).

[Sergarr]

In more interesting news, Assange has confirmed himself as a Russian shill:

Assange, who briefly hosted his own talkshow on the state-owned television network Russia Today, has long had a close relationship with the Putin regime. In his interview with la Repubblica, he said there was no need for WikiLeaks to undertake a whistleblowing role in Russia because of the open and competitive debate he claimed exists there.

Ahahahahah. Haha. Ha.

[martinuzz]

Which makes me wonder if Trump will grant Snowden pardon.

[redwallzyl]

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/26/502590161/mobile-home-park-owners-can-spoil-an-affordable-american-dream

this reminds me vary much of feudal landlords. some rich asshole "owns" some land and people live on it but he doesn't do shit to help them like hes supposed to. i say fuck them and confiscate their land if they fail to fulfill their responsibilities. this word called "land reform" comes to mind.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

How would those land reforms affect apartment renters?

[redwallzyl]

How would those land reforms affect apartment renters?

presumably it would be sold to someone else for pittance and if they don't take care of it then they lose it to.

[Sheb]

It's funny how trailer parks never were such a thing in Europe.

[martinuzz]

Well, there's the descendants of Sinti and Roma, who, at least in the Netherlands, sometimes still live in 'mobile home' communities (still called 'woonwagenkamp = mobile home camp by some, or just 'kamp' for short)  But for decades now, you won't find many real mobile homes in those. Most of the residents have upgraded their wagons to nice houses with brick walls and no wheels. Some still keep up the tradition and live on wheels.

EDIT: and then there's the many European circusses. They're probably the most historically rooted and still existing mobile communities out here.

[Reelya]

It's funny how trailer parks never were such a thing in Europe.

I'd put that down to America being a very new country with a rapidly expanding population in the 20th century. There was a need for cheap fast accommodation, along with an excess of motor vehicles. Low-income fast-growing nations have shanty towns, America had trailer parks. And America really did grow fast: The UK grew from 38 million to 64 million in the 20th century, while USA grew from 78 million to 282 million.