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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412607 times)

Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15435 on: December 10, 2016, 12:49:57 pm »

So, in a nutshell, Obama's foreign policy relies on reading yesterday's papers? seems very much like so.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15436 on: December 10, 2016, 12:55:01 pm »

"No sane people would accept communism except by revolution."

Nepal.
OK, I'll amend that to "no sane people except for Nepalese".
But why not others? What makes Nepal special?
I dunno. Honestly, it doesn't seem like their communists are any different from the usual kind, given that I saw words "decade-long communist Maoist insurgency" on Wikipedia's page on Nepal.
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." Yeah, not that different.
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Yes, but that doesn't change that America didn't have the history that Europe did.
Where does Europe enter in a comparison between USA and Latin America?
Oops, I meant Latin America. The point still stands - America's history is different from other countries, and this is not entirely due to the method of governance.
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How so?
Well, lack of speedy, open and comprehensive two-way communications usually results in regions eventually rebelling against the center. That's what happen with colonial empires, and with USSR and its puppet Warsaw Pact. USA itself is a result of such rebellion, you know.
Good point...
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Noooo.... oil and profit.
That's what communists have said, yes. It's also a very popular world-view in modern Russia - that USA only wages war for "oil and profit". Of course, such conspiracy theories should not be indulged by civilized people, would you agree with me on that?
No, I wouldn't. First, "communists say it, therefore it's wrong" is wrongthink in so many ways.
Quote from: Lord Wikipedia
Speaking at the Catholic University of America Columbus School of Law in 2008, Chuck Hagel, the former United States Secretary of Defense, defended Greenspan's comments: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."[112] General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander from 2003 until 2007, said of the Iraq war during a round table discussion at Stanford University in 2008, "Of course it's about oil, we can't really deny that."[113][114]
The US doesn't fight all wars solely for oil and profit, but it's a big motivator.
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International trade helps stabilize things, but there can be other factors, such as lining up every single European country in one of two alliances, then a single spark at the tip of the string...
For the Cold War time period, most of Europe was literally divided between NATO and Warsaw Pact. Yet, no big wars happened, because of USA's peaceful influences, backed up with a mighty nuclear fist, of course.
The Cold War stayed cold because of MAD. Not because USA IS THE BEST.
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Same thing is currently happening in the world, too, with various anti-NATO countries coming together and forging an unholy alliance - Shanghai Pact. Still no wars, though, because USA is the world's guarantee of peace and the strongest country on Earth.
Guarantee of peace, yeah, tell that to the Middle East.
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Trail of Tears, "internment" camps, Tuskegee experiment, Project MKULTRA, electroconvulsive therapy, literally giving guns away to known criminals so that they could be tracked (wait a sec, now they're shooting people with the guns!), injecting people with plutonium, exposing people to large amounts of radiation, testing mustard gas on sailors, adding poison to alcohol during Prohibition, land grabs...

Yeah, we have some periodic human rights violations. Just a few. (And that's off the top of my head / a quick Google search, and that's just its own citizens...)
Meanwhile, Europe in the same time period has killed off millions of Jews and other "undesirables" for the crime of existing, and has engaged in mass extermination of their colonies, enslaving the entire African continent.
Oh-ho-ho-ho, we're talking external affairs now. The US was imperialist too, you know. (And yet again, Europe is a continent, America is a country. Should the US be blamed for what happens in Canada, in Mexico? No? Then why should all of Europe be blamed for Germany's actions?)
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The difference in scale is pretty obvious.
And when we account for country v. nation, and compare apples to apples (no talking internal affairs for US, internal and foreign affairs for Europe), it's pretty clear that the US has bloody hands, just like every other country.
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I don't say that USA's government is perfect - nothing is; but it's better than European ones, and consistently so.
1. How so? What specific attribute or quality of the American government is superior to European systems?
2. How would you measure this?
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1. It hasn't been around as long.
    a. Therefore, it is easier to not have a bloody history.
    b. Old times are bad times, and many countries have bloody histories from before 1783.
    c. And while we didn't collapse ourselves, we sure helped other countries go through revolution... only to end with dictatorship. But since it's for CAPITALISM, it's fine, right?
2. Oh yes it has. See above.
Even if you only count things that happened in other countries after 1783, USA still wins handily.
The USSR became a dictatorship through the Communist revolution, the US helped other countries become dictatorships, because CAPITALISM. I don't see how the US wins.
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AAAAAAAAAA

No witch hunts, no witch hunts, REGRESSIVE LEFT, no witch hunts
We have evidence of Republicans knowingly stalling investigation into Trump's Russian ties.
Republicans are awful, yes.
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This is not a "witch hunt", it's enforcement of liberal justice, the only real kind of justice,
No, no, no, no, justice is non-partisan
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in order to prevent the evil from taking over the strongest bastion of liberalism and freedom.
Ahaha, no, America is the "evil" too, its actions have been controlled by the "evil" people far too often, see how it's not NUMBER ONE?

And remember, it's too easy to see all your enemies as "evil". Hatred is hatred, no matter which side of the spectrum it's on.
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This is pretty serious, if we let them take power, they will try to do anything in order to keep it.
Oh, certainly.
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You can expect mass surveillance and blacklisting of liberals, police given extra-constitutional rights to detain people without due process, and many other bad things, if we don't start acting against evil, and fast.
But as we "act against evil", we must take care not to become evil ourselves. Authoritarian Republicans would fuck us all over gleefully, authoritarian Democrats would do it "for our own good."
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that's not sexist, it's just being self-centered :P
It's very sexist. Extremely sexist. You've watched the video I linked, right? He's being super-sexist there. He scoffed at the idea of it being a "Woman of the Year", because he can't conceive a woman being actually important.
No, he just doesn't like "political correctness." He never actually said that women couldn't be important, he just didn't like the name-change. Of course that's patriarchical, though...
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15437 on: December 10, 2016, 01:05:23 pm »

I think the 'person of the year' should be a mirror, like actual mirrored foil, that's the only thing that'll satisfy Trump. Or maybe it'll just confuse him.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15438 on: December 10, 2016, 01:22:39 pm »

I think the 'person of the year' should be a mirror, like actual mirrored foil, that's the only thing that'll satisfy Trump. Or maybe it'll just confuse him.
Time actually did that... 10 years ago.
 


(IIRC, the monitor on an actual physical cover was a reflective surface)
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15439 on: December 10, 2016, 01:34:25 pm »

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That's what communists have said, yes. It's also a very popular world-view in modern Russia - that USA only wages war for "oil and profit". Of course, such conspiracy theories should not be indulged by civilized people, would you agree with me on that?
No, I wouldn't. First, "communists say it, therefore it's wrong" is wrongthink in so many ways.
Quote from: Lord Wikipedia
Speaking at the Catholic University of America Columbus School of Law in 2008, Chuck Hagel, the former United States Secretary of Defense, defended Greenspan's comments: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."[112] General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander from 2003 until 2007, said of the Iraq war during a round table discussion at Stanford University in 2008, "Of course it's about oil, we can't really deny that."[113][114]
The US doesn't fight all wars solely for oil and profit, but it's a big motivator.
It's not wrong-think, when literally everything communists have touched turned into death and decay.

And, really, statements like these are pure Republican propaganda. The Republican officials can claim that it was about oil, but it's all a part of the united Russian-Republican-Chinese anti-liberal propaganda machine that works to undermine and ultimately destroy the liberal civilization by making them forget about the righteousness of their cause. It's sad to see that it works so well, but I guess that's what happens when those people aren't suppressed like the neo-Nazis they are.

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The Cold War stayed cold because of MAD. Not because USA IS THE BEST.
And MAD was only possible thanks to USA-developed nuclear bomb technology, which communists stole from them, because that's what communists do with high technology - they steal it, because they're incapable of producing their own, due to their communism-infected brains being incapable of processing the level of data and workplace discipline necessary to make it.

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Guarantee of peace, yeah, tell that to the Middle East.
Without USA's help, the ISIS would've overrun Baghdad and caused Iran to intervene, forcing an open conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran. That's just one example of USA's benevolent peaceful influence in the region. Sadly, it cannot hold all conflicts, but it does what it can.

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Oh-ho-ho-ho, we're talking external affairs now. The US was imperialist too, you know. (And yet again, Europe is a continent, America is a country. Should the US be blamed for what happens in Canada, in Mexico? No? Then why should all of Europe be blamed for Germany's actions?)
Every major country in Europe was complicit in actions like that. United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Poland, they all engaged in systematic tyranny and extermination. And, while USA was imperialist for a short period of time, it quickly stopped being so, because USA is a free and liberal society that abhors things like that.

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And when we account for country v. nation, and compare apples to apples (no talking internal affairs for US, internal and foreign affairs for Europe), it's pretty clear that the US has bloody hands, just like every other country.
False equivalence. A typical communist tactic, by the way.

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1. How so? What specific attribute or quality of the American government is superior to European systems?
2. How would you measure this?
1. A rigid law system which facilitates peaceful transition of power, combined with enabling powerful citizen's movements for civil rights.
2. Count the number of times USA went fascist/communist/dictatorial, then compare to European average for the same period of USA's existence. That's just one of the simplest ways to do that.

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The USSR became a dictatorship through the Communist revolution, the US helped other countries become dictatorships, because CAPITALISM. I don't see how the US wins.
USSR also enslaved half of Europe into its communistic evil pact. And, while USA has created some dictatorships, they all have eventually transitioned into democracies, with powerful capitalist economies that provided their citizens with high quality of life. Like South Korea, for example. It was a dictatorship up until 1987, and it didn't prevent them from being one of the strongest economies on the planet.

You can't say the same about USSR. The only thing it provided its slaves was poverty and death.

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No, no, no, no, justice is non-partisan
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Ahaha, no, America is the "evil" too, its actions have been controlled by the "evil" people far too often, see how it's not NUMBER ONE?

And remember, it's too easy to see all your enemies as "evil". Hatred is hatred, no matter which side of the spectrum it's on.
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But as we "act against evil", we must take care not to become evil ourselves. Authoritarian Republicans would fuck us all over gleefully, authoritarian Democrats would do it "for our own good."
Reality has a liberal bias. Therefore, liberal justice is the only real non-partisan kind of justice possible. Any attempts at "neutrality" are a communist tactic used to introduce "false equivalence", with the aim of eventually transitioning into communist domination and shutting down all opponent through violent tactics.

Since we don't want that, we must do away with being formally non-partisan, and switch to being real non-partisan, that is, pro-liberal. Only then we can prevent the evil from corrupting and brainwashing people into serving itself.

There's a good saying about this sort of thing - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Good people did nothing about the Republicans slowly overtaking the American government, and now the evil triumphs, having full control. Well, not yet, but it will soon, seeing as good people continue to not realize the need to start doing something about the problem of Republicans.

It's a problem that needs to be solved for the good of the USA and the world. And it needs to be solved comprehensively, to make sure that neither they, nor anyone else similar to them, won't rise ever again, and that the American government will belong to the forces of liberal justice from now on and forever.
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15440 on: December 10, 2016, 01:45:40 pm »

Every major country in Europe was complicit in actions like that. United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Poland, they all engaged in systematic tyranny and extermination. And, while USA was imperialist for a short period of time, it quickly stopped being so, because USA is a free and liberal society that abhors things like that.
They did genocide about 4 times as much native americans than Hitler genocided jews. Although admittedly, over a longer timespan.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15441 on: December 10, 2016, 01:51:45 pm »

Every major country in Europe was complicit in actions like that. United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Poland, they all engaged in systematic tyranny and extermination. And, while USA was imperialist for a short period of time, it quickly stopped being so, because USA is a free and liberal society that abhors things like that.
They did genocide about 4 times as much native americans than Hitler genocided jews. Although admittedly, over a longer timespan.

Counting or not counting those killed by diseases brought over by Europeans that the Native Americans had no resistance to?

Either way, not something we're generally proud of.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15442 on: December 10, 2016, 02:07:27 pm »

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That's what communists have said, yes. It's also a very popular world-view in modern Russia - that USA only wages war for "oil and profit". Of course, such conspiracy theories should not be indulged by civilized people, would you agree with me on that?
No, I wouldn't. First, "communists say it, therefore it's wrong" is wrongthink in so many ways.
Quote from: Lord Wikipedia
Speaking at the Catholic University of America Columbus School of Law in 2008, Chuck Hagel, the former United States Secretary of Defense, defended Greenspan's comments: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."[112] General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander from 2003 until 2007, said of the Iraq war during a round table discussion at Stanford University in 2008, "Of course it's about oil, we can't really deny that."[113][114]
The US doesn't fight all wars solely for oil and profit, but it's a big motivator.
It's not wrong-think, when literally everything communists have touched turned into death and decay.
Hitler drove a car.
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And, really, statements like these are pure Republican propaganda.
Wait... what?
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The Republican officials can claim that it was about oil, but it's all a part of the united Russian-Republican-Chinese anti-liberal propaganda machine that works to undermine and ultimately destroy the liberal civilization by making them forget about the righteousness of their cause. It's sad to see that it works so well, but I guess that's what happens when those people aren't suppressed like the neo-Nazis they are.
So... the evil Republicans are fighting stupid wars, and then saying that the wars are for oil, and it's all a plot to make people think that we shouldn't meddle in other countries' affairs? Seems a little... conspiracy theorist to me. And considering that you called the "oil+profit motive" a "conspiracy"...
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The Cold War stayed cold because of MAD. Not because USA IS THE BEST.
And MAD was only possible thanks to USA-developed nuclear bomb technology
And Russian-developed nuclear bomb technology...
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which communists stole from them, because that's what communists do with high technology - they steal it,
Technically, we both stole it from Germany.
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because they're incapable of producing their own, due to their communism-infected brains being incapable of processing the level of data and workplace discipline necessary to make it.
Wut. Dude, you know I'm an anarcho-socialist, right? Please stop the insults.
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Guarantee of peace, yeah, tell that to the Middle East.
Without USA's help, the ISIS would've overrun Baghdad and caused Iran to intervene, forcing an open conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran. That's just one example of USA's benevolent peaceful influence in the region. Sadly, it cannot hold all conflicts, but it does what it can.
Oh, certainly the recent activities were sometimes good. But we wouldn't have needed to do those activities if we hadn't fucked up the Middle East in the first place! Without USA's "help", there wouldn't have been an ISIS!
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Oh-ho-ho-ho, we're talking external affairs now. The US was imperialist too, you know. (And yet again, Europe is a continent, America is a country. Should the US be blamed for what happens in Canada, in Mexico? No? Then why should all of Europe be blamed for Germany's actions?)
Every major country in Europe was complicit in actions like that. United Kingdom, France, Germany, Spain, Poland, they all engaged in systematic tyranny and extermination. And, while USA was imperialist for a short period of time, it quickly stopped being so, because USA is a free and liberal society that abhors things like that.
Yes, we all did that. Europe, America, all the big powers. But... the US stopped being imperialist at about the same time as everyone else. Stop the BEST EVER IN THE WORLD, SUPERIOR TO ALL, FREEST AND MOST LIBERAL COUNTRY for a second, and think.
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And when we account for country v. nation, and compare apples to apples (no talking internal affairs for US, internal and foreign affairs for Europe), it's pretty clear that the US has bloody hands, just like every other country.
False equivalence. A typical communist tactic, by the way.
Oh, whataboutism? There's a nugget of truth in that fallacy. I'm not saying that the US is equivalent to every other country, but it's not far better. Every country has a bloody past, and America is no different. You cannot point to other countries' bloody pasts, and from that alone deduce that America is NUMBER ONE.
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1. How so? What specific attribute or quality of the American government is superior to European systems?
2. How would you measure this?
1. A rigid law system
How is rigidity good? I'd say adaptability is far better.
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which facilitates peaceful transition of power,
What exactly does that mean? Transition of power from one person to the next, or transition of power from one system to another? I'm guessing the first.
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combined with enabling powerful citizen's movements for civil rights.
How exactly does the US do this? Oh, and civil rights are another way that the US is not-really-the-best.
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2. Count the number of times USA went fascist/communist/dictatorial, then compare to European average for the same period of USA's existence. That's just one of the simplest ways to do that.
That is wrong in so many ways.
1. Europe is a continent, USA is a country.
2. Fascism and dictatorship are bad, we've only ever seen authoritarian communism, so just say "authoritarianism, fascism, and dictatorship." Perhaps a distinction between communism (the ideology) and Communism (the historical implementation and system of government) would be useful?
3. There are many other factors, not just the system of governance, that affect the number of revolutions.
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The USSR became a dictatorship through the Communist revolution, the US helped other countries become dictatorships, because CAPITALISM. I don't see how the US wins.
USSR also enslaved half of Europe into its communistic evil pact.
Yeah, the US is better than the USSR, but that's not saying much.
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And, while USA has created some dictatorships, they all have eventually transitioned into democracies, with powerful capitalist economies that provided their citizens with high quality of life. Like South Korea, for example. It was a dictatorship up until 1987, and it didn't prevent them from being one of the strongest economies on the planet.
Wait a second, I thought we were discussing the system of governance, not the success of economies.
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You can't say the same about USSR. The only thing it provided its slaves was poverty and death.
It wasn't quite as bad as you say it was - remember, there were a few different periods of the USSR. Some were actually somewhat good. It got worse near the end, for a variety of reasons.
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No, no, no, no, justice is non-partisan
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Ahaha, no, America is the "evil" too, its actions have been controlled by the "evil" people far too often, see how it's not NUMBER ONE?

And remember, it's too easy to see all your enemies as "evil". Hatred is hatred, no matter which side of the spectrum it's on.
Quote
But as we "act against evil", we must take care not to become evil ourselves. Authoritarian Republicans would fuck us all over gleefully, authoritarian Democrats would do it "for our own good."
Reality has a liberal bias.
...but what does that even mean?
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Therefore, liberal justice is the only real non-partisan kind of justice possible.
No, justice should be outside the political spectrum!
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Any attempts at "neutrality" are a communist tactic used to introduce "false equivalence", with the aim of eventually transitioning into communist domination and shutting down all opponent through violent tactics.
Slippery slope fallacy. Also you're demonizing supporters of "neutrality", lol. Funny, you remind me of some Communists I know.
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Since we don't want that, we must do away with being formally non-partisan, and switch to being real non-partisan, that is, pro-liberal. Only then we can prevent the evil from corrupting and brainwashing people into serving itself.
The only kind of justice is the justice that I like /s
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There's a good saying about this sort of thing - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Good people did nothing about the Republicans slowly overtaking the American government, and now the evil triumphs, having full control. Well, not yet, but it will soon, seeing as good people continue to not realize the need to start doing something about the problem of Republicans.

It's a problem that needs to be solved for the good of the USA and the world. And it needs to be solved comprehensively, to make sure that neither they, nor anyone else similar to them, won't rise ever again, and that the American government will belong to the forces of liberal justice from now on and forever.
Oh come on, we can't violate freedom of speech, freedom of opinion, etc. in order to "save us from the EVIIIIL!" See, this is the liberal version of authoritarianism. PATRIOT Act -> LIBERAL Act, Lying Idiotic Bumpkin Evil Republicans All Lifeless.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15443 on: December 10, 2016, 03:04:40 pm »

You know what, I don't know how mainiac was able to keep this up without realizing his wrongness. This fucking "liberalism" is getting all too similar to authoritarianism, yes.

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Wut. Dude, you know I'm an anarcho-socialist, right? Please stop the insults.
Uh, no, I didn't. And, well, do you know that anarcho-socialism is unviable in real life, like any other anarchic society, due to them being weak and unable to defend themselves against the outside enemies? It's a wonderful idea, but it's simply not realistic.
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misko27

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15444 on: December 10, 2016, 03:11:32 pm »

Guys you make a great replacement for the old fare of hot mainiac-on-redking violence, but I'd appreciate it if you kept the super long quote-by-quote rebuttals to a minimum.

On a personal note my experience is that I've met a surprisingly large number of self-identified communists on the internet and my college campus, but all of these people have seemed more interested in Communism memes than actual class warfare. I guess I shouldn't be suprised, given that it's now hip to be a socialist and it provides an easy way of feeling superior. It's quite annoying for me though, since these people often end up opposed to "liberals" like myself (although opposed in a memes sense, not actually opposed) and then I feel the need to defend myself, which is not something I'm in the habit of doing. It sometimes ends up that I have to lecture communists about actual communism like what I'm doing with Dozebom. My grandfather was not only a communist official, but later in life a professor of comparative economics, and so he (and from his influence, I) have a lot of knowledge of actual communist theory and doctrine that makes arguing with such communists a quite amusing affair. I think I accidentally made a "communist" friend of mine think I was a very shallow anti-communist when I said that I explained communist theory to communist. I'm not: I just have an understanding of actual marxism that most don't for some bizarre reason. I've never met an actual communist who understands some of the deeper theory behind any of it; I know that they exist (and I've been told there are professors on my campus who would fit that profile), I've just never happened across any of them.
You know what, I don't know how mainiac was able to keep this up without realizing his wrongness.
Dude, too fucking soon. Rest in peace mainiac, may he forever smite fools and unbelievers in the after-forum.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15445 on: December 10, 2016, 03:15:46 pm »

It's not wrong-think, when literally everything communists have touched turned into death and decay.
Literally Hitler Sauron

And MAD was only possible thanks to USA-developed nuclear bomb technology, which communists stole from them, because that's what communists do with high technology - they steal it, because they're incapable of producing their own, due to their communism-infected brains being incapable of processing the level of data and workplace discipline necessary to make it.
Academician Igor Kurchatov don't real
Soviet scientists don't real
Everything was stolen, info 100% true

You can't say the same about USSR. The only thing it provided its slaves was poverty and death.
My grandparents and parents apparently lived in a completely different USSR... but I think those KGB mind control towers are to blame for that.

There's a good saying about this sort of thing - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Good people did nothing about the Republicans slowly overtaking the American government, and now the evil triumphs, having full control. Well, not yet, but it will soon, seeing as good people continue to not realize the need to start doing something about the problem of Republicans.
One-party state — best party state!
10 of 10 workers in USSR agree!
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this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15446 on: December 10, 2016, 03:32:10 pm »

It's not wrong-think, when literally everything communists have touched turned into death and decay.
Literally Hitler Sauron
In case you didn't get the memo, I was hyperbolically liberal, since this seems to be the main counter-Trump ideology these days, and I don't like that person much. It didn't work out very well. My inner sensibilities are still too high to take a level in Elite Liberal, for good or bad this may be.

I guess I should find some better anti-Trump ideology. One that doesn't result in liberal crime squads as its logical conclusion.

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Academician Igor Kurchatov don't real
Soviet scientists don't real
Everything was stolen, info 100% true
same here

Quote
My grandparents and parents apparently lived in a completely different USSR... but I think those KGB mind control towers are to blame for that.
yes those mind control tower are very powerful, they've made 48-49% of americans vote trump, because obviously no good american would vote trump otherwise

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One-party state — best party state!
10 of 10 workers in USSR agree!
lies, it's 99 out of 100, the 100th worker is absenting.
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Strife26

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15447 on: December 10, 2016, 03:47:03 pm »

Are we still dancing this circle?
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Descan

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15448 on: December 10, 2016, 03:50:40 pm »

62.8M is not 49% of the american population

it's not even 49% of the american population eligible to vote

it's not even 49% of the vote that trump got, it was 46~%
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #15449 on: December 10, 2016, 04:20:44 pm »


HR Watch is a right-wing American-backed NGO
No it's not.
also check World Bank stats, wealth per capita (GDP or PPP) is lower in Brazil and Colombia than Venezuela.

I am not sure that it's a valid comparison. i can understand the reason for wanting to compare neighbouring countries, but in doing so we risk neglecting a major factor like oil.

Chavez economic "success" is directly linked to the rise in oil prices and nothing more. he didn't even manage to capitalize on oil revenue to ramp up additional oil revenue.

I wonder what would happen if we took Colombia's and Venezuela's oil production figures and switched them around. this would be unfair to Colombia, since they could have taken past oil revenues and invest it back in their economy, but even that simple calculation reveals that Colombia's GDP per capita PPP would be higher than Venezuela's even if you just keep Venezuela at Colombia's oil production rates and don't change Colombia to Venezuela's.

That said, the PPP metric in Venezuela is too skewed to be seriously taken into account since it's nigh impossible to compare a basket of goods that is greatly affected by fuel at 1 cent/litre.

Well Chavez's "success" is that GDP per capita multiplied by a factor of 5 since the federal government took control of the oil industry in 2003. I like how people shift the goalposts:

"venezuela is an economic failure" => "well they're actually doing better than their neighbors, who you aren't calling a failure" => "but they should have done even better than that, therefore they're a failure, even though they're better".

Growth was higher and inflation was lower when Chavez was in power, compared to the period both before and after his regime. But that's retconned as "not good enough" because he had oil.
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