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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1443982 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2115 on: July 15, 2017, 05:18:06 pm »

The "easiest" way to handle a "torus" world would simply be to ignore any 2D distortion caused by contorting it in the 3:rd dimension (hence my quotes). On the embark map you'd just continue over the edges (possibly with some kind of indication of the starting "frame" around the world). That kind of thing ought to be possible within the framework of the myth & magic release handling of multiple planes, if desired.
Displaced tiles or whatever makes it awkward to navigate for the player and a total pain internally (and DFHack) to handle a new coordinate system. Even just using hexes, which is fairly common in games, would still mess up the internals badly.

When it comes to scales, I've seem a few of those:
- 16 * 16 world tiles for features
- 7 * 7 world tiles for "nearby" biome creatures
- 3 * 3 world tiles for region info
- 16 * 16 region tiles per world tile (called embark tiles by Max)
- 3 * 3 tiles per region tile for various features, including "local features" (they don't cross these boundaries, currently). I've got no name for these.
- 48 * 48 embark tiles (in my terminology, dwarf scale in Max') per region tile.
An official terminology would certainly be helpful.
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AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2116 on: July 15, 2017, 11:57:30 pm »

Sorry, I'm sure this gets asked a lot, but,
What's the story on getting non-dwarves in migrant waves or animal-people visitors?  Seems like animal-people don't show up in player fortresses nearly as much as they do in generated fortresses. 
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could God in fact send a kea to steal Excalibur and thereby usurp the throne of the Britons? 
Furry Fortress 3 The third saga unfurls.  Now with Ninja Frogs and Dogfish Pirates.

KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2117 on: July 16, 2017, 12:09:29 am »


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wait, WHAT? How did you manage to fast-travel in the arena?
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2118 on: July 16, 2017, 01:05:50 am »


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wait, WHAT? How did you manage to fast-travel in the arena?

I'm pretty sure the answer is some sort of memory editor, probably dfhack.
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Only vaguely. Made of the same substance and put to the same use, but a bit like comparing a castle and a doublewide trailer.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2119 on: July 16, 2017, 04:08:13 am »

Sorry, I'm sure this gets asked a lot, but,
What's the story on getting non-dwarves in migrant waves or animal-people visitors?  Seems like animal-people don't show up in player fortresses nearly as much as they do in generated fortresses.
Note: I've de-Toadied the quote.
Animal people can join sites from the wilderness, but there is currently no mechanic in place for them to do so for player fortresses, so the only animal people arriving at the fortress (i.e. not just passing by outside as "animals") are visitors. Civilized animal people are fairly rare, so it's not surprising that their proportion among visitors is small as well, but I agree they may be even rarer as visitors than they are as civ members (I don't think I've had a double digit total over all my fortresses, and certainly not any petitioners).
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2120 on: July 16, 2017, 04:48:35 am »

I have alternative research in that i've recieved human migrants before in my modded goblin fortress, and because there is usually a large quantity of migrants arriving at any one time hence better odds of receiving a different species migrant. Probably because goblins run around conquering & enslaving people meaning the non-adventurer worker populations are actually a mix of different species.

On that note im unsure if you mean Patrick that the population rates of wilderness critters joining civs to dwarves is so disproportionate that is not weighted in a way favourable for them to arrive rather than having the dwarves arrive for the entirety of your playthrough ontop that adventurer's where animal-people often join up don't seem to migrate as civil citizens unless they are the children of adventurers and don't follow their parents profession

Is the situation on how frequently we see animalpeople citizens likely to change by the hill dwarf arc? pushing for a community of tiger men citizens created from retired adventurers/migrants into a self contained extranous community so that we can get semi-occasional migrants from them.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2121 on: July 16, 2017, 08:23:16 am »

I thought migrants couldn't be of other races, but I can easily be wrong about that, as all my migrants are void dwarves. I have no experience of adventure mode. My actual point, though, was that feral animal people can't join player fortresses the way they can join other sites.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2122 on: July 16, 2017, 08:36:01 am »

I thought migrants couldn't be of other races, but I can easily be wrong about that, as all my migrants are void dwarves. I have no experience of adventure mode. My actual point, though, was that feral animal people can't join player fortresses the way they can join other sites.
They won't suddenly join from the wilds, but then, that only happens 5 or 6 times a century at a couple of key sites so you wouldn't really expect it. However after becoming civ members (obviously a longer history is better here) they move around just like anyone else as mercenaries, 'scouts', entertainers (and in the next release monster slayers, prophets, peddlers and fake versions of all of the above) so they should turn up from time to time.

Almost certain that migrants are limited to dwarves right now. That's what Toady said originally. Although last time I said that, I was told I was wrong (but without any proof), so obviously requires more Science.
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AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2123 on: July 16, 2017, 09:20:02 am »

My experience with the Furry Fortress mod (which adds more civs than usual, so that might be part of it) is that when traveling to any "big city" in Adventure Mode, it's usual to see 25-50% of the population to be a non-founder species.  (I usually play in the year 250)  It's usually from other civilized nations, but in worlds where other civs are scarce, animal people make up the difference.  But in a 100+ pop fortress, I feel like you're all but guaranteed to have at least one animal person citizen, but I've never ever had an animal person join one of my player forts. 
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could God in fact send a kea to steal Excalibur and thereby usurp the throne of the Britons? 
Furry Fortress 3 The third saga unfurls.  Now with Ninja Frogs and Dogfish Pirates.

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2124 on: July 16, 2017, 12:04:49 pm »

What exactly is required for a spouse converter to actually transform their prisoners? I've tried having [NIGHT_CREATURE_HUNTER] + [SPOUSE_CONVERTER] + [LARGE_PREDATOR] along with setting the orientation to 100% hetero and making sure the converter/converted have matching max age or no aging tokens.

Adding [LAIR:blah] tags and such seemed to help at times, as did the inclusion of relevant child tags/size~age tokens, but it wasn't until I tried setting [POPULATION_NUMBER:x:y] and [FREQUENCY:z] that I had my first successful abduction > transformation > reproduction results with a dual caste (converter+spouse) creature.

Afterwards through trial and error I had occasional success at getting a quadruple caste (converter male/female+spouse male/female) creature to properly abduct > transform > reproduce but I have no idea why I can break it just by things like taking the pairs of castes defined earlier and trying to assign traits to both with select_caste: and select_additonal_caste: lines to condense the raws some.

Does [BIOME:foo] have anything to do with converters? Does frequency actually matter or did I placebo myself?

There's a bit of luck involved with regards whether night trolls transform civ members, even among the in-game generated ones. Reviewing those, they have [NIGHT_CREATURE_HUNTER], [BIOME]s, [LAIR]s, [LARGE_PREDATOR], [SUPERNATURAL], one caste with [SPOUSE_CONVERTER], and one caste with [CONVERTED_SPOUSE] (though more castes of each do work, I've done that myself). The same applies to my hag and beast scripts, and the night creatures in my mod, which do reproduce at least occasionally (except the one with DIFFICULTY:11, but that's by design).
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2125 on: July 16, 2017, 12:26:26 pm »

they move around just like anyone else as mercenaries, 'scouts', entertainers (and in the next release monster slayers, prophets, peddlers and fake versions of all of the above) so they should turn up from time to time.

Almost certain that migrants are limited to dwarves right now. That's what Toady said originally. Although last time I said that, I was told I was wrong (but without any proof), so obviously requires more Science.

Hence my point about goblins enslaving & stealing babies that grow up for fortress egible roles and properly integrate into society as farmers, soldiers etc because the acquisition method directly boosts fortress population, and it seems since dwarves are the only ones capable of doing fortress jobs in a civ (animalmen don't count but a petitioned animal person would! so animal migrants probably wont be seen until that is possible for them to ask for citizenship) they are the only ones to migrate while adventurer roles move around by themselves looking for "work"

I think i may have just answered my own question, petition some animalpeople into your fortress, ship them out to the self sustainable ghettoised hill dwarf settlement, wait some years for second generation migrant animalmen.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2126 on: July 16, 2017, 03:03:18 pm »

Unless you create animal-people adventurers and have them join it's pretty difficult idea; It seems strangely uncommon (I can count mine on one hand) even if you have your only major town have large fraction of population be of animal men, and have humans (and goblins, who tend to be more numerous than humans in town when possible) show up fine as visitors.

As for first post-worldgen fort migrants, I've never heard of anybody receiving non-dwarves - even when the only people living in your mountainhome something like 2 dwarves, 500 elves and 100 goblins, you'll still get just (void) dwarves. I suspect it's tied into them (and their descendants, in case of animal men) being tied into library/tavern/whatever reason parent joined.

Remalle

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2127 on: July 16, 2017, 04:14:09 pm »

Are there any plans to add more planet-affecting events to worldgen/gameplay? Earthquakes, eruptions, asteroid/meteor strikes, that sort of thing?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2128 on: July 16, 2017, 05:39:53 pm »

Certainly during world gen with magic land forms being part of the myth & magic arc(s), and I'd expect some of these to have been formed through some kind of cataclysm or other. I'd expect various non fatal events (as in "not instant game over") to be on the back burner, but it's not something that fits easily into the visible development horizon (maybe starting scenario based on something happening to the mountainhome?).
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2129 on: July 16, 2017, 05:59:23 pm »

Are there any plans to add more planet-affecting events to worldgen/gameplay? Earthquakes, eruptions, asteroid/meteor strikes, that sort of thing?
Search back a month or two in Toady's fotf replies. He mentions wanting to implement all those disasters. Even says in certain circumstances that these could be world ending catastrophes (presumably some kind of extreme sliders caused 'time limit' world). "Change" is the theme of the next few years, so hopefully you'll eventually be able to stop the impending doom somehow.
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