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[Meph]

With humans coming next update, we have elves, goblins and necromancers left. Necromancers are a ton of work and very complex to write, so I'm putting them off a bit.

For elves I had the idea of seasonal workshops, the buildings change with the seasons and offer different abilities depending on the time of year. That would be a unique game mechanism for them.

But I can't figure out how to make goblins interesting. All I can come up with is a mix of kobolds, succubi and orcs:
- Mass-production of low-quality gear.
- Large amount of goblin units.
- Lots of infighting, combat training due to fights, etc.
- Kidnapping other civ-units for slavery.
- Torture room for positive toughts.
- Demon-summoning.
- Slave auction to sell kidnapped civ-units.
- Troll pet system with upgrades.
- Poisons
- Lots of obsidian/magma for that dark-tower feel.
- Sacrificial pit
- food production through farming vermin/hives
- Barghest/Beak dog/warg pets.
- mercenary workshop that hires ettins, ogres, minotaurs, giants, etc.

Thats pretty much it... I mean, yeah, they do have some unique atmosphere and I think they can be fun for succession forts, but there are no new game mechanics that would make them unique to play. Still good?

[dukea42]

Can they have higher rates of material wear, making them lords of the garbage heaps? 

Combined with lost of materials and maybe slow learn rates, few well crafted items means they should always be unhappy and hard to keep satisfied so they will tantrum spiral a lot.

[twryst]

May not be doable yet, but can you send out goblins as kidnappers, then raise the babies in the fortress  among the goblins? So goblin fortresses become filled with tons of children, and it's a very baby-centric game? You're running an armed, slaverunning daycare?

[FantasticDorf]

Id put a foot in and say to revolve domestic goblin play around successions of demons or a demon lord land holder.

One way to look at it is that unlike orcs, while still savage they have no interest in honour and therefore all cruelty and military practice is purely practical for serving their master. Therefore we can throw out such concepts like bloodbowl and honour related combat, straight to hard torture, entrancing hexes and psychologically breaking opponents into attacking their friends and acting as factionally aligned puppets (DFhackwise by inserting negative thoughts and the like).

This summoning of demons would be nessecary to flushing out over time gradually worse traits to powerful demon lords such as excessive mandates with a end-level demon becoming 'crazed' and therefore a threat to the tower. Resummoning and forcing this conflict also keeps goblins on their toes and occasionally dead, clearing away the trash to the troll pits where bones and bodies are recycled for trolls.

Each succession conflict, whoever wins pins down the remaining lord's negative traits by a notch with law punishment of treason being enacted on the losers (aka by goblin ethics, death). Eitherway the goblins citizens get the worst cut of the deal, but with the high amounts of migrants each month practically raising fortress pop to max with tens of thousands of goblins in the world to migrate to your fortresses then its managable to have so much death be around but to also thrive in it.

Obsidian casting rig? (akin to a magma forge that only relies on water being fed into it without consuming lava)

Perhaps via looting (or graverobbing invaders to sell trinkets to merchants for precious metals) you could pay off for these mercenaries dungeon keeper style. Unless we count again, cash4corpses in which you literally raise mercenaries off meat and bones with trolls, beak dogs and other things at the lower end of the spectrum eating goblin remains/indiscriminate but higher class mercenaries with particular tastes (giants demand human corpses for instances)

I personally keep modded in goblins in vanilla DF be a caste of highly skilled doctors on account to their excellent memories and above average intellect, but otherwise goblins are malleable.

If there's so much death around, goblins should at-least be the most efficient at cleaning up after themselves.

[Meph]

Can they have higher rates of material wear, making them lords of the garbage heaps? 

Combined with lost of materials and maybe slow learn rates, few well crafted items means they should always be unhappy and hard to keep satisfied so they will tantrum spiral a lot.

Its easier to make them tantrum without adding lots of micromanagement and FPS-hurting garbage-items.

May not be doable yet, but can you send out goblins as kidnappers, then raise the babies in the fortress  among the goblins? So goblin fortresses become filled with tons of children, and it's a very baby-centric game? You're running an armed, slaverunning daycare?

Sure, similar to orc-raiders. But I cant spawn babies themselves. I can spawn 1-year old humans for example, but they are treated as fully-grown humans that can do labors.

Besides, what would be incentive be to spawn babies? everyone hates those ^^

This summoning of demons would be nessecary to flushing out over time gradually worse traits to powerful demon lords such as excessive mandates with a end-level demon becoming 'crazed' and therefore a threat to the tower. Resummoning and forcing this conflict also keeps goblins on their toes and occasionally dead, clearing away the trash to the troll pits where bones and bodies are recycled for trolls.

You mean summoned demons that are super-tough and can be good military, but eventually/occasionally go berserk?

[LMeire]

How about animal-fighting rings and a gambling function based on that? Enter a caged animal and have the worker "fight" it in a reaction with a chance to kill one or both of the contestants. Goblins watching the spectacle would temporarily gain a boost to learning combat skills, while the worker (if they survive) would receive a direct benefit to combat skills based on the size of the animal. If the animal kills them instead it's instantly tamed and war-trained, so no matter what it's a win-win situation for the collective. Then later players can start betting coins, slaves, or some other currency on double or nothing brawls with the added risk that the fight might release the wild animal into the crowd.

Also, black markets and such. Like a limited form of dwarven/human trading only since both customers and sellers are so disreputable, there's a chance that you don't get anything in the trade or get a defective version of what you thought you were buying. Which would make gambling for excess more important.

[Meph]

I'm not sure if I can do that with modding. Especially the point about using caged animals as reagents. I could certainly make a big arena with progressively harder fights. They could even unlock new workshops, but I'm afraid people would abuse that too much.

[FantasticDorf]

You mean summoned demons that are super-tough and can be good military, but eventually/occasionally go berserk?

Generally, sort of, thats one way to look at it.

But being the land owner (as to say monarch, and 'ruling from site') hold responsibility to meet with other people in the tower and orchestrate other things (such as being a head of the military & diplomacy) is hampered when you are bloodthirstily destroying everything you set your eyes upon.

Having them integral to fortress politics also stop players from holing them up in a room to never be dealt with.

[Meph]

I think the internal AI will make all idea regarding infighting and murder rather hard, with loyality cascades and all that.

[daisha]

Can they have higher rates of material wear, making them lords of the garbage heaps? 

Combined with lost of materials and maybe slow learn rates, few well crafted items means they should always be unhappy and hard to keep satisfied so they will tantrum spiral a lot.

I do love this idea.  Armies of filthy goblins in rags running around with swords that have been used as crowbars a few too many times, fighting amongst themselves constantly but breeding fast enough to make it okay.

[Meph]

Ok, here an idea:

Progression by arena fights.

A large workshop that spawns a group of enemies. You need to defeat said enemies to get 2 items:
1. build-mat for a new workshop.
2. reagent to spawn next group of enemies.

Enemies would get progressively harder. Not only would you have invaders to fight, not only would you have tantrums and nobles to kill, but your main tech-tree is unlocked by fighting in a large pit in the center of your fort.

Maybe you have a prized gladiator team, maybe you just throw ill-equipped migrant-militias at the problem, till you reach a higher level.

Storywise I'm not sure if it should be an arena with wild animals, a "declare war on foreign goblin groups", or a "demon king demands blood for the blood god" arena.

[LMeire]

Why not all three? Starting with animals for basic survival/low-level industry stuff. Then once you've gotten your settlement off the ground you need to build up a reputation among the other scum so you pick fights with rivals for their spots in the underworld hierarchy. Finally after much pain, blood and death, you catch the attention of a powerful demon lord that decides to sponsor your fortress with fancy toys and servants. It could end with actually spawning the friendly demon lord as a permanent resident/special noble.

[Meph]

Same thing I was thinking about... which is why I made this mock-up.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Edit: Crap, the last one got cut off... Arena 18 uses the demon-overlord corpse as buildmat and spawns friendly demons.)

Feedback?

Most steps would unlock "something", no idea what... probably build materials for workshops and "unique" weapons/armors. Of course people can build several arenas, but fighting your way through them again seems like a bit of work.

PS: Good luck if anyone ever gets a tantrum and topples that workshop. ^^

[daisha]

That is a very intense Arena progression.  I'd hate to meet the "kobold champion" that comes several levels after a bronze colossus.   

The inclusion "spawn nothing, upgrade it again with stuff that you definitely have" levels seem like a lot of scripting overhead for nothing to me.

[Meph]

That is a very intense Arena progression.  I'd hate to meet the "kobold champion" that comes several levels after a bronze colossus.   

The inclusion "spawn nothing, upgrade it again with stuff that you definitely have" levels seem like a lot of scripting overhead for nothing to me.

Lots of scripting = one line in onload.init, one reaction with 3 lines.

Its just that I want to upgrade it from a sand pit to a stone arena to a glorious colosseum, and it needs some build-mats for that. Not just corpses.

the champions should get some special interactions and skills. A bronze colossus is big and dumb, but a kobold with shuriken, poison and level 15 in dodging?