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Author Topic: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)  (Read 3603 times)

Frumple

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First, link! That goes to the game's blog, where you can find download links. Looks to be around an update every month or so, so... yeah. Also the game's name was changed earlier this year -- one of you out there might recognize it better as Legend of Siegfried. There's a forum, too, if apparently not particularly active.

Blurb:
Quote
The game draws the most influence from ADOM, but it will go far beyond that. The world will be randomly generated, continents, dungeons, towns, cities, etc. There will be a single over-arching theme to the game, but there will also be random quests, as well as a selection of preset quests that will appear in some or all games. The idea is to take the great ideas of ADOM and other roguelikes and remove their limitations while improving upon them. Rather than the world and quests being completely static (and limited), they will be as dynamic as possible while still retaining their meaning and feel.

A lot of the mechanics will differ from ADOM, of course, but in the end it aims to be in the spirit of ADOM (and its predecessors), without limitations and with maximum re-playability.

What is it?
It's an in development roguelike! Standard fantasy fair, mostly, but some interesting things as well. At the time of this posting, you get thrown into the world with a wizard tower and probably not much else, and after you run around and murder things for a bit you pick up a quest or two that gives a little bit of direction. Still pretty barebones in a number of areas, as fairly well befitting its state of development, but it's definitely got the sense of getting there.

Why should I care?
Spoiler: Well, there's this: (click to show/hide)
Easily what's attracted me to this the most immediately is the magic system. There is no mana! Spells operate off a cooldown system, but also from some other things. As well as cooldown limitations, you've also got two other magic related "resources" -- magical saturation and magical balance. The first is relatively straightforward -- it's a percentage that rises as you cast spells, up to a limit, after which you can't cast anymore (so far as I know, I haven't actually hit the cap yet, heh). The neat thing to that is that as saturation increases, so does the strength of your spells, so you've got a system that really incentivizes using the abilities you've got.

Magical balance is an interesting limiter, and a pretty neat mechanic (even though it's perfectly viable to just kinda' ignore it, from what I've seen playing). It's basically your magical saturation in reverse -- as you cast more spells, your imbalance increases and in turn decreases your spellpower. It and saturation just about cancel out, if nothing else is being done. The trick to it is there's a way to mitigate magical imbalance, with the way being in the name. The game's magical system is based around (at least at the time of writing) three general types of spell, and if you cycle through all three, part of the imbalance cancels out -- basically, if you keep yourself in balance and vary up the sorts of spells you're using, you mitigate a fair amount of the penalties involved. It's an honestly pretty slick bit of design, both incentivizing active ability use and rewarding variation in what you're using and combined arms, so to speak, tactics. All while having things tuned so it's not really a punishment if you don't.

There's also a really rather neat modifier type mechanic in the game. You have a small pool (two types, at time of writing, and 8 each) of what amounts to runes you can place at a distance, which modifies the effects of many spells when cast within a certain radius of 'em. Ferex, with the basic magic missile style ability, one type spits out an extra bolt when you cast at anything within about 5 squares of the rune, and the other, well. The other explodes when your magic missile hits anything within ~two tiles of the rune. And there's no real hard limit to how many you can have out, save the your pool of available ones, the duration they last once placed, and whether the rune-thing is consumed when triggered -- it's entirely possible (and, indeed, how your character is most likely going to manage to survive) to set up a line of the bolt duplication ones and fire volleys into a layered line of the explosive variety, slamming an enemy with swarms of magic missiles and triggered mines as they approach. This alone has made playing, even with the still fairly limited magic list, quite the blast (sometimes literally :V) -- it definitely adds a whole hell of a lot to the game, considering how to place things and cross-interact spells and triggered spell effects and whatnot.

And then there's that wizard tower. It... is a wizard tower. You have global enchantments you can toggle (only four, currently, and only one of which effects anything beyond you or your tower, but still). You can have a laboratory (necessary for alchemy, which is a kinda' neat system in itself that I'll leave to the player to check out), you can have a ingredient growing area, you can have an automatic mine. You have a grand hall, an observatory to check out the astrological signs, it's... just a straight up wizard tower, and the most wizard towery implementation of a wizard tower I've seen in... well, at the very least a roguelike, and probably just about anywhere in the world of video gaming. Even with how bare bones it currently is.

And last but not least, the item system definitely looks to have a fair amount of potential. Conceptually fairly basic material/enchantment stuff, but they're already doing some occasional fairly neat stuff (like a material that increases damage as you repeatedly hit something in a short time period) and it's only barely starting to get fleshed out.

There's probably other stuff, too, but that's been the most immediately noticeable stuff I've ran in to, so far.

Any warnings?
Well, it's currently ASCII. Pretty clean ASCII, but still ASCII if that's a problem for you.
It's... also rather difficult. I tried for a while normally, and could get pretty far if I played very carefully, but even a little bit of inattention or poor play would get my face shoved in. Even cheating hilariously (which is how I've been playing in my more recent runs, just to see more of the game) I still occasionally get brutally murdered.
And, of course, development is development. There is the occasional crash bug (current version, watch out for the white Ds -- they seem to have something going on with their crits that can cause the game to error out. You can still fight and kill them, just don't let them get in melee with you) and whatnot, and who knows what the game will look like next year or whatev'.
Related to that, the UI is a little clunky in places. Not particularly badly so (and there's mouse interface, which ameliorates a bit of that), but working with container items (which is kinda' important, since you've get something more or less like ToME4 transmogrification chest at level 2, i.e. an autopickup feature that can mulch unwanted items for gold) can be a little rough. Couple more button presses than really needed, stuff like that.

Anyway, I've had a fair bit of fun with it over the last few days, even with so much development ahead of it, so I figured it'd be a good idea to share it and hopefully get it on some more folks' radars. If it manages to keep going and continues to develop along the path it's on now, we're definitely going to have a contender for one of the major roguelikes on our hands, imo.
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getter77

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 07:03:13 am »

Each meaty update tends to bring it a nice few steps forward as they happen, so yeah, easily one of the most anticipated...and rarely attempted at this scope...mega projects out there in the Roguelike world.
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Reyn

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 11:49:52 am »

Thanks for sharing this.
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getter77

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 08:21:33 pm »

Heh, that good timing to boot:

Quote
Numenfall 0.3.8 is now released!

Thanks to the Feedback Friday players for all the valuable feedback! This release focuses on addressing many of the issues raised by them, as well as including several bug fixes and content additions.  Of particular note is the new tutorial system, which attempts to explain new game mechanics as you encounter them.  As always, feedback, bug reports, suggestions and any other comments are welcome.

How to report a crash: Check 'kernel.log' in the game directory for any error information.

All downloads require .NET framework 4.0 or Mono with support for .NET framework 4.0.
I have not been able to test this version on Linux.  It will require you to install at least SDL2 as a dependency.

Download 0.3.8 with music
Download 0.3.8 without music

Changelog:

New tutorial mode
Transferring items to or from containers moves the whole stack by default; hold shift to move part of a stack
Items can now be used from within containers
Add Vi keys for movement control
Add specific death messages for bleeding and poison
Add terrain info to look mode
Targeting UI now prints a cancellation message
Improved some areas and added new stuff
Improved loot generation
Improved page scrollbars
Improved keybinding display
Learning spells now requires confirmation
Reduce toxicity generated by a few potions
Arcanist-Alchemy now starts with ingredients for potions
Fixed a couple bugs with collapsable categories in the inventory screen
Fix a crash bug with some items not setting stat modification info correctly (thanks to an uploaded bug report)
Fix a crash bug with certain monster melee attacks (thanks to an uploaded bug report)

Remove Monogame dependency, requires SDL2
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Frumple

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 08:27:49 pm »

Ha, neat. Time to check it out a bit.

E: Ahaha, fair warning. Maybe don't click on items inside containers in the z menu, with the latest version. Has at least a chance of crashing the game :V

... also don't forget to save. Regularly, heh. That was ramping up to a nice start...

Ah, and yeah. For folks trying it for the first time, the legacy specialty is head and shoulders easier than any other option, currently, by several orders of magnitude. The talent points are fairly irrelevant (though it is an advantage over the other specialties, as only mining seems to have something you can't otherwise currently get in game) -- the big deal is that 30k starting gold. You take that, immediately go into Aberna, and buy every enlightenment potion and higher tier (mithril, etc.) piece of equipment you can fit on yourself. It's pretty easy to start off with extra levels and enough armor your initial forays into combat are significantly less dangerous. It's far from necessary, as harmonized force bolts go a long way, but it definitely helps.

E2: Ah, and if you're feeling patient, you could also consider wandering around the countryside until some trade caravans wander in. They can have some... rather good stuff. That's expensive! But with a legacy start you have enough gold you can probably pick up one or two things, and for their better stuff one or two things is all you need to faceroll over most of the less dangerous enemies. S'also kinda' nice to go ahead and map out most of the world map, just to make using the goto command easier, so... yeah.

E3: Essence of vitality recipes! Don't try to read them. Crashes :3

Though it may be a requirement thing. At least don't try to read them until you've got more than one level in alchemy. And save before you try. Salves of whole body do the same thing, ehehe.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 09:13:33 pm by Frumple »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2016, 09:11:52 pm »

PTW
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 02:50:17 pm »

Hello, Numenfall dev here.  Thanks to OP for the very interesting write-up; way better than anything I could do!  Sorry about the recent crash bugs.  I put up an update earlier today to try and fix them.  Normally I would play a few complete games to do bug testing, but I haven't had time for the last couple releases.

Anyway, always glad to see anyone enjoy the game!  I'd also be happy to answer any questions about the current state of the game, what you can and can't do right now, future plans, etc, etc.  The description on Roguebasin is a little out of date now; initially the plan was to basically make "ADOM 2" myself, but the goal is a little different now. Less open-world, more story oriented.  There are some (a lot?) of similarities to TOME 4; some people have even thought that I use the T-engine.  But that's probably mostly because the layout of the UI is similar.  As far as I know, my game shouldn't be as demanding of your computer, and I hope the gameplay is significantly different.
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Frumple

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 04:26:25 pm »

Hello, Numenfall dev here.
Hey, weclome! Always nice to have the dev drop in. Glad the write-up did it some credit, and no worries 'bout the bugs. Expected with in dev stuff, and there haven't been any that were particularly game breaking (well, that I've ran in to, personally, so far, heh) anyway.

Quote
Anyway, always glad to see anyone enjoy the game!  I'd also be happy to answer any questions about the current state of the game, what you can and can't do right now, future plans, etc, etc.  The description on Roguebasin is a little out of date now; initially the plan was to basically make "ADOM 2" myself, but the goal is a little different now. Less open-world, more story oriented.
I'd definitely be interested to hear something about that necromancer option that's taunting us in the profession list, hehe. ... also, is that eternity archivist a nanoha reference, or is that unintentional/aiming at something else? Actually just noticed the possibility, ha.

Smaller scale, would be interested in knowing how to (/if you can) make use of the smith in Aberna. Swung by the place a few times with various bars or gems and whatnot in the inventory and didn't get any sort of positive response. Maybe some sort of indication of what you're missing could be put in, there?

... also, is there any way to get more mining automatons, or just things in general to stick in the hole under your tower? Take over the goblins after wrecking their fortress and use them as cheap labor?

Totally digging the almost masters of magic/age of wonders vibe with that tower, by the by. Should be really interesting to see how that progresses in the future, especially once stuff the screen actually fends off starts showing up.

Quote
There are some (a lot?) of similarities to TOME 4; some people have even thought that I use the T-engine.  But that's probably mostly because the layout of the UI is similar.  As far as I know, my game shouldn't be as demanding of your computer, and I hope the gameplay is significantly different.
Ehehe, performance is actually only a little better than T4... with everything turned down as far as it'll go (ToME could actually manage even better than it does, but no one's gotten around to making a truly slimmed down version, yet -- even the no music version has something like 200 megs of superfluous graphical finery in it). Definitely better than it with any of the bells an whistles turned on.

And yeah, gameplay is quite different (have been playing T4 since something like beta 2, so I can say that with some confidence :P). Some rough similarities, but they're mostly pretty rough indeed. Just the resource interactions and the harmony/discord stuff are things T4 doesn't play with much (some -- oozemancers have some similar mechanics to the latter, and the paradox resource in general is pretty similar to numenfall's current magic system*, just with more moving parts and a different sort of penalty involved -- but not much). Only really close thing is the bag, and I blame absolutely no one for using the same mechanics as (or at least similar to) ToME's transmog chest, personally. Easily one of the best implementations of loot management the gaming world's seen, heh. Well... and maybe the stamina/ammo implementations. Stamina's generic, though, and anyone who says that infinite quivers are something bad is someone I'd have a go at. It's nice to have main characters that don't have trouble keeping themselves in food and arrows. Once they can figure out how to swim, your critters'll have the three main clichéd roguelike incompetencies beat :V

Other than that, nah, there's not really much in the way of similarities, other than a vaguely similar UI and sorta' similar talent design (cooldown based, et al, but T4 doesn't exactly have a monopoly on that sort of thing... just happens to be about the biggest roguelike that makes notable use of it, particularly while rolling with the whole icon thing). So far, anyway. Not that there'd be anything wrong with things if there were -- T4's got a lot of good design ideas floating around in it, and it's almost always good juju to pay attention to good ideas.

Any case, definitely thanks for what work you've done so far! Looking forward a fair bit to seeing how it develops in the future. Kinda' regret I never got around to checking it out before the name change, heh. Almost did a few times, but never got around to downloading it.

*The chronomancer classes in general would actually be a pretty decent thing to look at, if you were interested in doing more stuff with a similar intent to what you've got now, I'd say. The whole scheme of a resource that ramps up but becomes more unstable as it does is very much a similar concept, just with more involved effects than a simple effectiveness penalty. Could probably pluck out some ways one can riff on that more than numenfall currently does, if you were interested. Not saying it needs it or anything, but I'm pretty much always a proponent for adding more involved and novel parts to a mechanic, ehehe.
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 05:26:21 am »

The necromancer will be the class which is primarily about minions.  Other classes will have them, but they're definitely not the main focus.  One mechanic which will be unique* to the necromancer is being able to occupy the same tile as one of the minions, which will prevent you from taking any non-aoe damage by having the minion soak it instead.  Unlike summoning spells, the necromancer's minion making will take place at their stronghold (this is similar to how automatons and golems will be constructed), putting a variety of resources to use that determine the characteristics of the minion.  Since this is the necromancer we're talking about, you're going to need bones.  A lot of bones.  And the quality and type of bones used has an effect on what kind of minion you end up with.  Necromancer minions can't be permanently destroyed, since you'll invest so much in them and you don't have direct control over them.

Eternity archivist isn't a reference to anything that I know of.  Her core mechanics will revolve around some kind of "DNA" collection, which I can't say much more about at the moment.

Right now smithing can only be used to remove negative crafting modifiers from metal weapons or armor.  One of the goals for 0.4.0 is to add improving and creating new items to the smithing ability.

I believe the only way to get more people in your stronghold with the mining skill is a relatively rare event atm.  Also planned for 0.4.0 is a guaranteed way of getting the basics done in your tower, so you don't have to rely on random events to get started (although I will be adding more events, and more ways to get upgrades as well).  You will be able to build automatons in 0.4.0 as well, since smithing will be in.

Quote
Should be really interesting to see how that progresses in the future, especially once stuff the screen actually fends off starts showing up.

Yeah, right now there's nothing that actively tries to come after you.  This is going to change soon, which will make efficient use of time much more important.

Just a quick note about perf: Numenfall doesn't try to run as fast as possible by default; if there's stuff happening that you can see, it will slow down, e.g., so you can see the paths of projectiles.  There's an option called "time correlation" you can use to tweak or disable this behavior, if you like things to happen as fast as possible.

Quote
the paradox resource in general is pretty similar to numenfall's current magic system*

In a previous version, it was much more similar: as your saturation and imbalance increased, you would have a chance to fail or miscast a spell... which was not fun.  In T4, that doesn't really matter that much (on normal diff at least), since you can simply cast spells at random to kill everything long before they get close.

In general, I want mechanics that reward good play rather than punishing bad (even if numerically they end up the same), and I want to avoid things that can easily get you killed at the roll of the dice.
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Frumple

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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 08:05:49 am »

Necro sounds neat, ahaha. Definitely interested in minion classes, and ones with permanent ones (particularly ones with much in the way of customization) are fairly rare in roguelikes. Multiple ones fairly rare period. So it'll be nice to see. Does sound like they'll be less legion-of-undead-y, but... maybe some kind of later game global effect? Fertile domain except zombies! Ghosts flapping about bothering people (and/or helping out, too.). That sort of thing. Anything that twigs the Dominions vibe is good stuff, heh, though I guess scale wise it's more the mentioned MoM or AoW. Still.

And ah, to the EA. Saw the connection regarding the mentioned series' Infinity Archive, which plays a somewhat notable role in the things' plots. There's a handful of other similar termed/themed things throughout media, too, so it was worth asking if there was a particular shout out behind it. It being original is cool, too, though.

Good to know about the smithing -- definitely explains why I never managed to figure out what it did. Didn't buy or keep many weapons with a negative modifier on 'em. And that event must be pretty rare indeed... unless I just haven't been checking the right ones (so far I haven't messed with anything over goblin tier, for all those start throwing hoards of stone golems at you pretty quickly*), I haven't seen it yet,. Good to hear about the 0.4.0 stuff, too.

And re: Paradox... may be underestimating it a little. The parts I'd call interesting from a design perspective would probably be the later game stuff -- the various methods of anomaly management that the chronomancy classes (and chronomancers in particular) have. They've got some neat ideas of how to turn miscasts/failures into something that's more than just a punishment, and are fairly well tuned so you start getting access right about when it starts becoming really likely you're going to be running in the unstable zone. Far from perfect, but there's some neat ideas there, even if there's no place for 'em in numenfall.

Think relative to numenfall's current system, it'd look like something (probably later on, or fairly exotic) that weaponizes/utilizes magical imbalance, turning that inert energy into something more... energetic, ehehe, ferex. Or having high levels of imbalance starting to have a sort of general harmony/discord effect for the surrounding area**... stuff like that. It'd be something to tweak so it starts coming into play around the point it starts getting really likely you're going to be running high imbalance/saturation/etc., and implemented in a way that rather than punishing the player, it changes things. If there was any interest, anyway, which it'd be entirely understandable if there isn't.

*Actually, now that I think about it, how intentional is that? I've been finding that usually somewhere in the teens or so, character level wise, stuff like the goblin slave camps stop being populated by goblins and start being populated by large angry rocks... which tends to accelerate the effect, 'cause those golems are pretty good XP.
**It'd be really neat if there eventually ended up a way to just permanently break the balance of a certain area, with all sorts of effects from it, actually. Changes to potions made/used in it, all sorts of stuff. Or just having particular areas that are like that -- magical dumping grounds that are so infused with discord that harmony effects become unusable and discord ones automatic, ferex (with the extra bonus of functionally having 16 rune-thingies while you're in there, assuming the area corrupted the harmony remnants into discord fragments, anyway). Or a particularly wrecked area that has it fluctuating, ahaha.

E: Actually, on the subject of intent... are shop keepers supposed to attack you if you pass out in their shop while holding an unpaid item? Haven't checked to see if it's still doing that in this latest version, but it was in 0.3.7. Was probably the most amusing death I've had so far, I think. General store fellow took umbrage to the critter browsing their goods being potion drunk, I guess :V

E2: Ah, bug report! If you see it, anyway. Apparently if you try to autoexplore when you're in, at least, the top leftmost tile of the map, the game will crash.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 09:16:03 am by Frumple »
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2016, 07:39:17 am »

Quote
Or having high levels of imbalance starting to have a sort of general harmony/discord effect for the surrounding area**... stuff like that. It'd be something to tweak so it starts coming into play around the point it starts getting really likely you're going to be running high imbalance/saturation/etc., and implemented in a way that rather than punishing the player, it changes things.

I like this idea, and it's something I've thought a bit about before.  But I'm not sure it would go with the Arcanist class, I'll have to check my docs.  In any case, I have to really think through the design on something like this, so that optimal gameplay doesn't involve abusing it, especially as there's no limit on how many spells you can cast.

Re: encounters and random events, the "difficulty" of these increases over time independent of your character, and atm stone golems are at the top of the spawn table for the goblin areas simply because I haven't gotten around to making more high end goblin npcs.

And... shopkeepers attacking you for passing out doesn't sound right.  I'll look into this.  Autoexplore bug is fixed, but it's minor enough I won't build a new version yet.
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2016, 05:22:17 pm »

Is there some kind of tutorial?
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2016, 08:24:35 pm »

Latest version has tutorialy popup messages. They show up when you do whatever they're about. Can turn 'em on or off in the options. Between that and the command list most of the game's fairly well explained, at least from what I've noticed.
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2016, 01:24:20 am »

But what about larger-order things? Like how exactly to power the mana thingie, or what the goal is for the game? A wiki'd be great. Let's make one!
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Re: Numenfall: The Magic Missile Goes Kaboom (In Development Roguelike)
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2016, 04:11:24 am »

Mm... those two you find through exploration, iirc. It does tell you what you need to power the mana whatsit, though not where to find it. Goal wise, there's a quest list and that initial blurb :P The former also updates itself as you gain levels/time passes in game, so you kinda' find out about your goals alongside the character instead of starting off some sort of prescient.

I guess things could be more explicitly, but I'd actually say at the moment the game is handling that sort of thing fairly well. It's pretty obvious when you find something, but not the most obvious where to find whatever, which is generally how a decently tuned exploration facet of a game goes. Add the plot progression that's already there (and apparently to be improved) and it's doin' a'ight.
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