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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 192012 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #795 on: October 29, 2016, 06:20:43 pm »

Based on what, you say?
Quote
Theresa May said in 2007 MPs should have veto on EU negotiations

My reading is that May had once said that parliament should have a say on any changes to EU involvement (not just the unimagined Brexit) and now she says the opposite.
Whether that's because:
1) she has matured her opinion dince then (like Trump now no longer habitually grabs women in rude places(!)),
2) it was only an argument ever to be used whilst in opposition, and/or
3) Brexit isn't a mere 'change to EU involvement' and the rule that kicked in for significant changes stops applying again at some higher threshold...
...it's still a rather interesting thing to know about.
I don't actually understand "May supported UK even before Leave existed", but the above might cover what my best guess is about your (I think) complaint.
I'm gonna forgive you for insulting May with a comparison to Trump, least of all to to put lewdness and May in the same sentence, or that right there is salt farming simulator current year +1 Lol
Now back in 2007, Eurosceptic Tories were a significant faction within the Tory party that held no real power in the Tory HQ or in Parliament. Worse still, this was all under the Labour party which was at that time entirely dominated by New Labour (which fit together with the EU like finely aligned tetris blocks). Thus back then, when the EU was enlargening with the Lisbon Treaty, Theresa May was searching for the answer that retained British sovereignty. What was significant about the Lisbon Treaty was that for pretty much everything that makes a nation state, the notion of unanimity votes on stealing appropriating sovereign powers was replaced with majority, as otherwise every Wallonia across Europe would keep the EU as a nice free trade bloc, instead of a bureaucratic empire keen on world hegemony. This meant that the EU could override the UK on whatever, because fuck you that's why - thus Theresa May sought veto power for the Lisbon Treaty negotiations in an effort to halt the rise of the European Union as we know it today. We would perhaps be able to squeeze concessions with each new treaty, but each concession would signal to folks like me that another piece of sovereignty has been lost that we'll never get back - the trend is downwards, and the only way out is out.

If for example it was apparent that she had a track record of supporting the European Union in policy before she was in the spotlight, before it was relevant to her meteoric rise in public office - it is a demonstration of sincerity that their views were constant before and after they were world-relevant. Hence why I would not trust a capable Tory minister that I know has been supporting the EU until only after the election result, I don't doubt that it is possible they had a sincere change of heart, it's just you can't afford to be wrong. If you're wrong, then we'll likely still be de facto a member of the Union and thus the fight will still have to go on for a very long time.

Why the hell would we give Parliament 'a say'? We elect Parliament to do the boring business of everyday government because we're all too busy doing real jobs. For something important like Brexit we voted on it directly ourselves, and a decision was made.
Parliament already had their say, they were up and down the country, on radio, television, morning shows, papers and spam ads campaigning for Remain and were decisively defeated. Now they want to be able to just ignore the fact that their constituents disagree with them :P
Reminds me of an old conversation I had with a Labour MP, after he professed great virtue on how he only deserves office for as long as he listened to his constituents and acted according to his will. Amusingly, this was all before Brexit, so I asked him about how then he would respond to the majority of Britons supporting Leave, whilst he supported Remain - he told me the story of how he helped end fox hunting even though most Britons couldn't really be bothered either way. The subtext was clear, act according to conscience, and maintain the pretense of legitimate mandate - thus pleasing both crowds. Don't think it'll work this time :D

The idea of Parliament overturning Brexit is like an important businessman telling his secretary that Joe Bloggs can't have a raise, but the secretary decides to give him one anyway. Later that week, as the secretary is being sacked and unceremoniously escorted out of the office by security, their wailing and cries of 'But I normally handle the payroll for you! Why are you sacking me?' echo up and down the office, as a warning to the rest of the secretaries lest they start thinking they're running the company.
The secretary later goes home to their apartment and slits their wrists in the bathtub. The obituary is short, and merely reads 'Ed Milliband tragically committed suicide after losing his job for gross incompetence. Again.'
I'm not so sure in this case if Parliament has legs to stand on or not, apart from sad Miliband :[
Just cos this really is a rather unique event. I am rather conflicted on the matter, as Parliament overrepresents Remain far beyond their democratic mandate allows, but I also want to hear what Remain wants to say in regards to Brexit now that everyone has calmed down. Help avoid that civil war Remain is edging towards lol

My main issue would be if the overrepresented Remain MPs seek a veto, which they inevitably would use to override Brexit. This would be against the wishes of the majority of the UK, against the wishes of the European Commission, and would cause the most hurt for both the sovereign nations of Europe and the United Kingdom. Saltiness would be understated if the Remain camp, having enjoyed unrivaled control of our media, treasury, parliament and cabinet, still managed to emerge victorious from their most crushing rejection by British voters.

Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #796 on: October 29, 2016, 06:23:40 pm »

But all bants aside, why would I be touchy? We won m8.

And as Tusk himself has said, there's no soft Brexit. Out means out.
I won't repeat myself...
Touchy: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159095.msg7219606#msg7219606
What means what: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159095.msg7211843#msg7211843
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hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #797 on: October 29, 2016, 07:38:59 pm »

Why the hell would we give Parliament 'a say'? We elect Parliament to do the boring business of everyday government because we're all too busy doing real jobs. For something important like Brexit we voted on it directly ourselves, and a decision was made.

The idea of Parliament overturning Brexit is like an important businessman telling his secretary that Joe Bloggs can't have a raise, but the secretary decides to give him one anyway. Later that week, as the secretary is being sacked and unceremoniously escorted out of the office by security, their wailing and cries of 'But I normally handle the payroll for you! Why are you sacking me?' echo up and down the office, as a warning to the rest of the secretaries lest they start thinking they're running the company.

The secretary later goes home to their apartment and slits their wrists in the bathtub. The obituary is short, and merely reads 'Ed Milliband tragically committed suicide after losing his job for gross incompetence. Again.'

Covenant with the strawman, ftw.

The question in the referendum was, essentially, "do you want to leave the EU?" not do you want to leave the EU but remain in the single market? What about border controls? Various taxes? Human rights?

Are there going to be referenda on that? No. That's why parliament wants to have a say. They might try to stop Brexit, but taking Labour's ridiculously stupid move after the vote, MPs tried to oust their leader, who was voted in by members of their party, and the members of their party voted him back as leader, and I find it hard to believe anyone can honestly expect an elected representative to say "nah, the people don't know what they want" and have them still be an elected representative. That shit won't fly. People know how to use social media, there'll be lists of MPs that go against the vote going around faster than a cat video.

... Remain and were decisively defeated...

lol 1.9% is decisive.

Remember when Farage was all "we won't accept a 52/48 split"?

Anyhow, my position:

May has said there's going to be no running commentary on their negotiating position. Far as I can tell, even four months hence, there has been no commentary whatsoever. Parliament shouldn't have any say on whether or not the UK leaves the EU, since folk already voted for it - however thin the margin. They should, however, be able to represent their constituents by having a say on whatever terms the UK should push for in the negotiations.

Not everyone voted for the Tories, but as things stand, the Tories are now negotiating for everyone, despite the aforementioned vagueness of the referendum question. Representative democracy ftw.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Radio Controlled

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #798 on: November 03, 2016, 06:04:23 am »

Sorry if I didn't respond to any comments aimed at me, I've been very busy with my projects. That said, here's a thing:

Brexit court defeat for UK government

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In lighter news: Boris Johnson to make "Titanic success of Brexit".
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #799 on: November 03, 2016, 06:13:10 am »

Dang I have so little respect for Nigel it is like I have a douche filter over everything he says.

It doesn't help, I guess, that he kind of is a giant douche... but I should take what he says seriously instead of dismissing it out of hand.

Anyhow it isn't a "betrayal" for the courts to rule against Brexit if they consider it unconstitutional. Their job isn't to play partisan politics.

And yes it DOES suck when something good is stopped by courts (and great when something bad is stopped by them)... But I don't exactly consider the courts betraying the people.

BESIDES there are ways around the constitution... Just do that
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 06:16:26 am by Neonivek »
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scriver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #800 on: November 03, 2016, 06:31:04 am »

Sorry if I didn't respond to any comments aimed at me, I've been very busy with my projects. That said, here's a thing:

Brexit court defeat for UK government

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In lighter news: Boris Johnson to make "Titanic success of Brexit".
[/quote

Well, it's true if it suceeds and true if it fails. It's the most kind of true statement!
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martinuzz

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #801 on: November 03, 2016, 09:53:32 am »

Sorry if I didn't respond to any comments aimed at me, I've been very busy with my projects. That said, here's a thing:

Brexit court defeat for UK government
UK government appeals the verdict and wants to get it before Supreme Court. But yeah, setback for May and government. At the very least it means a delay. Dunno how long the waiting lists are for Supreme court cases in the UK. Could well be years.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 09:55:44 am by martinuzz »
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hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #802 on: November 03, 2016, 09:54:53 am »

Maybe now we'll hear about what their negotiating position is going to be.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Radio Controlled

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #803 on: November 03, 2016, 10:02:21 am »

Sorry if I didn't respond to any comments aimed at me, I've been very busy with my projects. That said, here's a thing:

Brexit court defeat for UK government
UK government appeals the verdict and wants to get it before Supreme Court. But yeah, setback for May and government. At the very least it means a delay. Dunno how long the waiting lists are for Supreme court cases in the UK. Could well be years.

Saw somewhere they're putting it on a fast track and that the case will be heard in December, to avoid dragging things on forever.

FAKEDIT: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-latest-theresa-may-supreme-court-article-50-case-uk-eu-high-court-win-loss-a7395036.html
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21:26   <XYZ>: I know nothing about this, but I have strong opinions about it.
Fucking hell, you guys are worse than the demons.

Leafsnail

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #804 on: November 03, 2016, 03:08:44 pm »

The court didn't rule against Brexit, it ruled in favour of the basic manner in which our parliament has always worked. They'd do the same if the government tried to ignore parliament on any other issue.

The referendum was not binding, we knew from before it happened that any result would require a further act by parliament to implement.
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #805 on: November 04, 2016, 08:49:30 am »

Looks like a pro-EU Tory in a constituency not too incongruent with a district that was 70th most Leave of 382 (by my reckoning) has decided he can't resolve this issue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37872899

Could end up as a water-temperature test, in advance of any other major votes (parliamentary or generally electoral)...
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #806 on: November 04, 2016, 08:53:27 am »

The court didn't rule against Brexit, it ruled in favour of the basic manner in which our parliament has always worked. They'd do the same if the government tried to ignore parliament on any other issue.

The referendum was not binding, we knew from before it happened that any result would require a further act by parliament to implement.

No Nigel Faraday already said the courts betrayed all of the UK. His word is officially binding, because he is the King of England!

I don't quite know why Nigel portrays it that way mind you... He isn't stupid (A lot of things yes, but not stupid)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 11:17:45 am by Neonivek »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #807 on: November 04, 2016, 12:42:04 pm »

Because he is dishonest.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #808 on: November 04, 2016, 01:06:35 pm »

Because he is dishonest.

Are... we allowed to put down Nigel?

I mean... I dislike him greatly and find him to be kind of a bigot who plays off of people's darkest desires.

But I assumed he was popular in the UK and kept waiting for people to get pissed off at me for even questioning his integrity.
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hector13

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #809 on: November 04, 2016, 01:13:19 pm »

He's not well liked in the UK. He's well liked by bigots and morons, because he's a bigoted moron.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.
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