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[Shonai_Dweller]

If sex were implemented, would rape?

I could imagine goblins having something like [ETHIC:RAPE:PERSONAL_MATTER], but I don't know how far Toady would want to go in that regard.

Just imagine the media coverage this would get. Dwarf Fortress - A Rape Simulator. Might be popular in Japan though, they have their rapelays and whatnots.

This thread seems as doomed as the last one to go round and round in circles.
'Sex?'
'Urgh.'
'Rape?'
'Off screen sex, romance, etc, as currently planned'
'Rape?'
'Urgh'
'Off screen...'
'Rape?'
Etc, etc, etc...

[Orange Wizard]

WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

[Starver]

Been reading this thread with a certain other thread in mind.  A thread that was excised entirely from the forums, and only vaguely discussed thereafter, so far as I can tell, so as not to consign the threads with the mentioning to the bitbucket too.

I don't think I can sufficiently circumlocutorially paraphrase what I know of that incident, so I'm not trying. But I think we're getting into dangerous territory.

[JesterHell696]

If sex were implemented, would rape?

I could imagine goblins having something like [ETHIC:RAPE:PERSONAL_MATTER], but I don't know how far Toady would want to go in that regard.

well Goblin are explicitly labeled as evil in game so it would make sense that if anyone would do it it'd be them, maybe that's what the whole child snatcher thing is about? it would certainly give a whole new motivation to stopping snatchers if that was the case.

Just imagine the media coverage this would get. Dwarf Fortress - A Rape Simulator. Might be popular in Japan though, they have their rapelays and whatnots.

Well they say there's no such thing a bad publicity...

Been reading this thread with a certain other thread in mind.  A thread that was excised entirely from the forums, and only vaguely discussed thereafter, so far as I can tell, so as not to consign the threads with the mentioning to the bitbucket too.

I don't think I can sufficiently circumlocutorially paraphrase what I know of that incident, so I'm not trying. But I think we're getting into dangerous territory.

I know what your talking about but what player mods into DF does not reflect negatively on the developer, I remeber hearing about how in fallout 3 some people didn't like un-killable children and a mod removed it and some other did like sex animations and modded them in but when you had both mods installed you could initiate those sex animations with children and that didn't hurt Bethesda none.

Also there's the GTA Online rape mod which didn't really hurt Rockstar.

If it ever went in and I doubt it will but kind of hope it is because its an important point in Guts (berserk manga) backstory and I want to play as Guts, if it was added it would be after the justice ark when toady could officially make it a crime in the game world that the player could be punished for, then if the player decides to do such they may find themselves wanted across the kingdom facing execution if caught.

[Ekaton]

I know what your talking about but what player mods into DF does not reflect negatively on the developer, I remeber hearing about how in fallout 3 some people didn't like un-killable children and a mod removed it and some other did like sex animations and modded them in but when you had both mods installed you could initiate those sex animations with children and that didn't hurt Bethesda none.

Also there's the GTA Online rape mod which didn't really hurt Rockstar.

If it ever went in and I doubt it will but kind of hope it is because its an important point in Guts (berserk manga) backstory and I want to play as Guts, if it was added it would be after the justice ark when toady could officially make it a crime in the game world that the player could be punished for, then if the player decides to do such they may find themselves wanted across the kingdom facing execution if caught.

Yes, hardly anyone would blame the studio for players' mods, but now imagine that Rockstar added a function to rape a child in GTA V, I doubt that they would have been allowed to make GTA VI, costly lawsuits would follow and the game would have been banned in many countries. Decades after its release people would still say that it was evil. Can you see the difference?

[JesterHell696]

Yes, hardly anyone would blame the studio for players' mods, but now imagine that Rockstar added a function to rape a child in GTA V, I doubt that they would have been allowed to make GTA VI, costly lawsuits would follow and the game would have been banned in many countries. Decades after its release people would still say that it was evil. Can you see the difference?

I see the difference I just don't think its as big of a deal as some people believe, video games are a type of media and rape both child and otherwise has been depicted in media for decades saying it can't be done because of out rage is part of the problem, what would be necessary to it to work is to include the right internal games system to accuracy depict they developer's non-approval of such actions while still allowing the player to take them.

The rapelay game you mentioned got banned from sale in many countries but there was no legal action against them and rockstar can't be stopped from making the game but can be interfered with when it comes to what they do with it (sales) which is what would stop them and as DF is not technically for sale you can't ban its sale, For example the sale of stick of truth was originally banned from sale in Australia but you could buy an overseas copy and legally own it, nor would it stop them from using patreon for donations as other patreon project do have similar content.

One of the big complaint about the Crime the player commits in GTA (specifically against women) is that there are no consequences, and it upsets people to see such crime to go unpunished but given DF's setting and current justice system having a player rapist be sentenced to death by hammerer would do a lot to alleviate that outcry, hell give the player the ability to be a bounty hunter whom hunts down rapists while your at it to further alleviate the issue.

I've personally always felt the idea that killing people in video games a.ok but sex or rape is the devils work is a silly line to draw and someone has to be the first to challenge that idea and it sure as hell wont be a mainstream game dev's and most indi dev's don't have the ability or desire to add the necessary level of detail to the social ramification of such actions but DF with it world simulation goal and justice ark it could handle it by making it something that almost everyone hates you for... so long as it is marked as evil in the raws and treated as evil in game then people would be more accepting of the idea I think, you give the player a sandbox what they do with that sandbox is on them imho.


Finally I did say.

-snip-

If it ever went in and I doubt it will but kind of hope it is because its an important point in Guts (berserk manga) backstory and I want to play as Guts, if it was added it would be after the justice ark when toady could officially make it a crime in the game world that the player could be punished for, then if the player decides to do such they may find themselves wanted across the kingdom facing execution if caught.

[Starver]

I just thoughf that we were getting close to a line. I have no problem (fewer problems) with certain 'specialist' games, but that's generally their equivalent to Ghost Eating/Coin Collectng/Nazi Shooting/Territory Take-overing/Pig Toppling. For DF, it's <Insert User Defined Aim Here>ing, which is definitely kept open and vague such that the story-telling aspect at its philosophical core remains open and free.

Yet it seemed that there are uncomfortable lines, for Toady, and one (that I know of) so uncomfortable as to have been excised, upon which we were encroaching. And tbat was existing mechanics (combat/grappling?) being manipulated by user-mod. Maybe the problem would be less problematic if the mechanism was not 'subverted', merely extrapolated, but I don't wish to speak for Toady, this was more just to avoid the "He's behind me, isn't he?" comedy moment...

In the meantime, perhaps I should redirect people in the direction of Corruption Of Champions. Not as 'sandboxy', but then with that kind of activity, sand is usually not desirable. But go into the desert if you must... 

[GoblinCookie]

I've personally always felt the idea that killing people in video games a.ok but sex or rape is the devils work is a silly line to draw and someone has to be the first to challenge that idea and it sure as hell wont be a mainstream game dev's and most indi dev's don't have the ability or desire to add the necessary level of detail to the social ramification of such actions but DF with it world simulation goal and justice ark it could handle it by making it something that almost everyone hates you for... so long as it is marked as evil in the raws and treated as evil in game then people would be more accepting of the idea I think, you give the player a sandbox what they do with that sandbox is on them imho.

Finally I did say.

Killing people is not sexy, rape can be sexy; hence the distinction actually makes sense.  Sexual imagery has a greater grip on the mind and desires of the watcher/reader than violent imagery does, hence you should be very careful with what you are depicting,

[Putnam]

oh, fuck.

[xZippy]

Sex is gross. Girls are gross. =/

[Random_Dragon]

Orbok Whatshisface is pleased to see this derp idea get posted for the millionth time.

[sirvente]

Killing people is not sexy

There are so many communities out there with so many different takes on murder fetishism that I'm not sure how anyone in the 21st century can say that in any other way than expressing a personal preference.

[therahedwig]

Okay, so, after reading this thread, the I have come to the conclusion that the real reason sex won't get in beyond flavour text is because the majority of the player base isn't mature enough for it.

[FantasticDorf]

Okay, so, after reading this thread, the I have come to the conclusion that the real reason sex won't get in beyond flavour text is because the majority of the player base isn't mature enough for it.

Agreed.

Its also asii (practically, graphical enhancements or not), so we'd have to put it in the combat log or some other log which in itself is a waste of time and would no doubt cause controversy for being a tad bit perverse in being voyeuristic to the sex lives of fictional beings for personal pleasure. What people want to mod in is their own business but to fold it into the vanilla game is not really kosher.

I always viewed the subject in DF as being very impersonal, and that people (as to say dwarves and most races) were private about it rather than arranging orgies or the like to be excessive. Its a bit like the animal breeding we have now, its just a trigger by emotional bonds that incurs pregnancy in the target or prompts to get married. People can in the game have multiple lovers but its private affairs all the same.

Im all for simulating romance, but keeping the privacy of our dwarves and chronicling their love story (they walked down to the beach and watched the sunset) rather than their sex-tape all over in engravings and player logs is probably more appropriate.

Rape (i personally despise using that word) isn't really appropriate whatever the setting, its especially insulting, offensive and insensitive to the player audience too. Even on extreme hostility settings (as detailed recently in the dev logs detailing sliders for a brutal and grotesquely unfair world settings) it would be more appropriate for characters to not have the option open to do such a thing (Or handle it VERY specifically to make it vague, much like night troll spouses, nobody really knows what happens there), we must understand it exists in this real-life world with a air of maturity, but it probably wont have a place in the world of DF as hard as you may try in the same way.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . we'd have to put it in the combat log or some other log . . .

I disagree with you there. In my mind, the best way to handle sex would be to handle it with just about the same amount of detail as we currently handle eating. We don't get a blow-by-blow account of how Bomrek's tongue slams the plump helmet roast against his lower right back tooth, we just see his ☺ icon sharing a tile with the food's % icon, and his current action of "Eat". Why can't Bomrek and his spouse similarly just go to bed, where we see the rotation of tiles ☺ / ☻ / ♥, and their current action of "Sex"? We shouldn't need a damn thing more than that.

As for Adventure mode, just follow the same protocol. Do you want to eat that piece of jaguar meat you've been carrying around? Yes. Is the jaguar meat still edible? Yes. Okay then, you just ate it.
Do you want to have sex with this individual? Yes. Is the individual receptive to your advances? Yes. Okay then, you just had sex. No lengthy, fap-worthy descriptions required.

It's the (quite literal) perversion of forcing the very descriptive combat system to write violence-porn that is the obvious elephant in the room. Now, Toady could theoretically write in a way for the game to discern sexual violence, and, if it's detected, buff the intended rape victim to be nigh-invincible . . . but that feels incredibly fake to me, especially in a game designed for realism. A more palatable (and far simpler) alternative would be to lock out sexual arousal while the player is engaged in combat. You can slam your pelvis into your victim's pelvis all you damn want, but if your genitals never get the message, all that you'll experience is frustration. Which is exactly what any would-be rapist player should get (well, that and an in-game reputation as an attempted rapist).