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[Putnam]

Dwarf Fortress gets much of it's publicity due to the fact it lacks official graphics.

No, I don't really think so. Lots of games don't.

[Ekaton]

Dwarf Fortress gets much of it's publicity due to the fact it lacks official graphics.

DFs publicity is definitely not positive for most of the players. DF is presented as this toughest game, where it is impossible to win and losing is fun. That will attract some but discourage most.

[Chase]

ok

[smakemupagus]

DFs publicity is definitely not positive for most of the players.

We must travel in different social circles.

[Ekaton]

DFs publicity is definitely not positive for most of the players.

We must travel in different social circles.

I am not only speaking of my immediate social circles but of my broader observations. True, I asked quite a lot of people recently why they don't want to play DF and the main answer was graphics as I said before, but I think, I am basing this on my marketing knowledge, reviews I've found and opinions about DF I've encountered on other forums, the "Losing is fun" and "This game is impossible to learn/master/win" are deterrants really for most. Sure, they might convince those players who like challenge, but in my opinion DF with graphics and some more civilian features as detailing farming, tavern keeping, being able to become a merchant or a noble would be much more attractive to a much broader group of players. There are reasons why there are games recently where you can run a tavern or do many different casual things in fantasy worlds. People want such games, but they don't really want them with ASCII - again, there is a reason why it is being abandoned.

[smakemupagus]

On the other hand, Dwarf Fortress has been on display in the collection of the MoMA because some people so strongly appreciate its design aesthetic, and Stardew Valley has not (yet?).  So different people have different tastes, and it's all good!

[Ekaton]

On the other hand, Dwarf Fortress has been on display in the collection of the MoMA because some people so strongly appreciate its design aesthetic, and Stardew Valley has not (yet?).  So different people have different tastes, and it's all good!

Vanilla DF aesthetics are fine and auite unique these days, I am not saying that those should be abandoned, I just wonder if perhaps DF could benefit from having two graphic systems in vanilla for the player to choose from.

[Chase]

On the other hand, Dwarf Fortress has been on display in the collection of the MoMA because some people so strongly appreciate its design aesthetic, and Stardew Valley has not (yet?).  So different people have different tastes, and it's all good!

Vanilla DF aesthetics are fine and auite unique these days, I am not saying that those should be abandoned, I just wonder if perhaps DF could benefit from having two graphic systems in vanilla for the player to choose from.

There are mods, colors, and 3rd party extensions for those who need that. I personally love the gritty ascii and color format, everything is clear and distinguishable. And it really goes to show that the game has character. Honestly, When/If v1.0 comes out I wouldn't want them to touch the graphics. It's very charming and mystical as is.

[WakeMeUp]

On the other hand, Dwarf Fortress has been on display in the collection of the MoMA because some people so strongly appreciate its design aesthetic, and Stardew Valley has not (yet?).  So different people have different tastes, and it's all good!

Vanilla DF aesthetics are fine and auite unique these days, I am not saying that those should be abandoned, I just wonder if perhaps DF could benefit from having two graphic systems in vanilla for the player to choose from.

There are mods, colors, and 3rd party extensions for those who need that. I personally love the gritty ascii and color format, everything is clear and distinguishable. And it really goes to show that the game has character. Honestly, When/If v1.0 comes out I wouldn't want them to touch the graphics. It's very charming and mystical as is.

I hate the ASCII and wouldnt have even touched DF with them. Thank Mako there are mods.

[Cormack]

While I wouldn't go as far, I too think ASCII are not good. A lot Steam greenlit games recently, a lot of them niche, not one ASCII IINM.

[Ekaton]

@WakeMeUp - don't spread hatred in this subject, please. It is not against ASCII - it is about what if there was an alternative to it readily available for new players.

[jecowa]

I think the default graphics might be part of the reason this game is as well-known as it is (as mentioned by Toady at Dwarf Moot).

I don't think most new players are going to be comfortable playing with ASCII initially, even if they'd like to be able to. I don't see any need for Bay 12 Games to include graphics with the game, though. If someone learned of Dwarf Fortress from a friend, that friend can tell them to use the Lazy Newb Pack for graphics. If someone learns about the game from the internet, there's a good chance they'll watch a YouTube tutorial. Many of them are going to be using graphics packs, especially those targeting new players. When searching for a Dwarf Fortress tutorial on YouTube, a new player is sure to see several examples with graphics, and those YouTubers using graphics in their newbie tutorials will probably mention the Lazy Newb Pack. The community is providing for the game pretty well with all these tools, graphics, and tutorials.

What graphics pack do you think would be a good candidate for inclusion? A lot of the existing graphics packs would be kind of tricky for Toady to legally include in the game with so many artists who have contributed to them. GemSet and CLA might be good candidates since (I believe) they were both made by a single author, but both those packs are pretty ASCII-ish and may not be the best choice for a player uncomfortable with ASCII.

[Chase]

I think the default graphics might be part of the reason this game is as well-known as it is (as mentioned by Toady at Dwarf Moot).

I don't think most new players are going to be comfortable playing with ASCII initially, even if they'd like to be able to. I don't see any need for Bay 12 Games to include graphics with the game, though. If someone learned of Dwarf Fortress from a friend, that friend can tell them to use the Lazy Newb Pack for graphics. If someone learns about the game from the internet, there's a good chance they'll watch a YouTube tutorial. Many of them are going to be using graphics packs, especially those targeting new players. When searching for a Dwarf Fortress tutorial on YouTube, a new player is sure to see several examples with graphics, and those YouTubers using graphics in their newbie tutorials will probably mention the Lazy Newb Pack. The community is providing for the game pretty well with all these tools, graphics, and tutorials.

What graphics pack do you think would be a good candidate for inclusion? A lot of the existing graphics packs would be kind of tricky for Toady to legally include in the game with so many artists who have contributed to them. GemSet and CLA might be good candidates since (I believe) they were both made by a single author, but both those packs are pretty ASCII-ish and may not be the best choice for a player uncomfortable with ASCII.

I downloaded vanilla and opened up this

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://imgur.com/a/nGyRF#0

[Ekaton]

Chase - what exactly do you mean by your post?

[Flarp]

I think a more pertinent question is - why would we want DF to gain "mainstream" popularity?

Toady One appears to making enough from donations to support himself comfortably and continue development at what is a pretty impressive pace for one single programmer. Mainstream appeal would mean more money for him, yes, but no appreciable increase in development speed, unless he started contracting out the coding work (which I really would not want). And consider what a "mainstream" fanbase would do to the game- less focus on complexity and versimiltude, more focus on "game-ness" and graphics, which I personally think aren't in need of improvement.

I guess I don't understand what's so bad about the status quo.