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Author Topic: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France  (Read 7038 times)

Loud Whispers

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Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« on: June 14, 2016, 03:16:48 pm »

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hollande-convenes-emergency-meeting-police-killed-39836570
Quote
The timing may not have been coincidental: The killings came after IS urged supporters to act in Europe or America during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which is currently under way.

Abballa made the declaration of allegiance to Islamic State in response to IS calls to "kill non-believers where they live," and with their families, Molins said.

Salvaing, 42, was a police commander in the Paris suburb of Les Mureaux; his partner has not been identified. Authorities have not said whether there was any link between Abballa and the victims.
It's not coincidental, this was ISIS's strategy change after they got hammered by the Kurd/Syrian/Russian/Turkish onslaught. If they cannot hold ground then they shall be as a liquid

Quote
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who has been deemed by his fighters to be the first Caliph since the Ottoman empire, aims to extend an ‘Islamic State’ into Europe.
Rush O Muslims to your state. It is your state. Syria is not for Syrians and Iraq is not for Iraqis. The land is for the Muslims, all Muslims. … This is my advice to you. If you hold to it you will conquer Rome and own the world, if Allah wills,”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/2/islamic-state-vows-conquest-rome-soldiers-islamic-/#ixzz36Q5ZI5FF
ISIS's strategy to stop focusing on Syria and Iraq and have their foreign fighters try to start global jihad on their homefronts is one of necessity; they are losing ground in Syria and Iraq and cannot hold ground there even in spite of foreign fighters. ISIS does not care about portraying themselves as victims on their magazine covers (or twitter posts in this case), they want to appear as victors - only with victory can they prove their legitimacy. Losing ground and getting reamed by aerial bombardment does not reek of victory and is not a very appealing recruitment message, one need only look on youtube to see very sad jihadists weeping as their foritified positions are vaporized by several thousand pounds of explosives to see how worried they are about demoralization. So attack everywhere across the world - cheap, governments are much less capable of air striking an enemy they must first find amongst their own subjects or citizens, and it draws attention away from the fact that the global state they're trying to build grows smaller and more broken every day.
This pattern is reflected across the world where ISIS affiliates like Boko Haram or Al-Shabab have changed strategy from holding ground to just inflicting as much damage as possible on soft targets. Think of how an invasion of Rome or Paris would be fatally impossible for ISIS, but an attack much simpler with pretty much the same morale boost to their fighters and their global image in the Sunni world. ISIS is weak, grows weaker - so it must appear strong. It's pretty much devolving back to its insurgency phase.
I was watching some Canadian news people laughing at American press releases from the Obama administration saying that ISIS was losing, when they were conducting more attacks on the West. They are indeed, but are also losing, as attacks do not a conquest make. That's just some penny thoughts though

Some thoughts on this attack in particular:
Quote
The main question for anti-terrorism investigators now is whether Abballa had accomplices or was part of a larger network. Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said late Tuesday on France 2 TV that it appeared at this early stage "most probable" that Abballa acted alone, though that must be confirmed by the investigation.
Earlier in the day, three people —ages 27, 29 and 44 — were detained in the investigation, Molins said. Two had been convicted with Abballa in 2013 for involvement in a network recruiting for jihad in Pakistan, a French official said.
One does wonder what most of the cells in Europe are up to, it is rather unusual to have terrorist groups willing to be political and militiant. More dangerous imo when they get more sophisticated

Quote
Abballa was from the western Paris suburb of Mantes-la-Jolie, and lived in a well-kept, working class neighborhood where shaken residents described puzzlement at the attack. Another neighbor, Henriette Yenge, said she would say hello to Abballa when he went to the mosque around the corner.
"He was a neighborhood kid," she told The Associated Press. "I was surprised it was him. It's sad to see things like that."
Interesting that it comes up again and again, how they seemed like normal and friendly people. The most puzzling thing is I don't think any of them are lying, so one does wonder why normal seeming people take up the sword to kill their fellow man, even taking into account religious doctrine. There's plenty more religious people not killing everyone on the streets for example

Quote
Hours before the killing, Abballa went to his neighborhood mosque and prayed so long that mosque employees had to make him leave. Rector Mohamed Droussi said Abballa was reading the Quran for hours and was the last to leave. "I took the key and I said, 'we are closing,'" Droussi said.
Then again it is a bit absurd when people say religion has nothing to do with these attacks. Hmph, something worth discussing I reckon?

Sheb

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2016, 03:23:41 pm »

I mentioned that in the Orlando thread, I'm wasn't sure it was worth its own thread. I'm surprised he was jailed three years ago and was now runnning around like this? Well, that's one guy for whom reinsertion didn't work. At least the policeman's kid made it out alive.

Not sure what you meant by this though:

Quote
Quote
The main question for anti-terrorism investigators now is whether Abballa had accomplices or was part of a larger network. Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said late Tuesday on France 2 TV that it appeared at this early stage "most probable" that Abballa acted alone, though that must be confirmed by the investigation.
Earlier in the day, three people —ages 27, 29 and 44 — were detained in the investigation, Molins said. Two had been convicted with Abballa in 2013 for involvement in a network recruiting for jihad in Pakistan, a French official said.
One does wonder what most of the cells in Europe are up to, it is rather unusual to have terrorist groups willing to be political and militiant. More dangerous imo when they get more sophisticated

Isn't "political and militant" part of the definition of terrorist?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2016, 03:41:23 pm »

I mentioned that in the Orlando thread, I'm wasn't sure it was worth its own thread. I'm surprised he was jailed three years ago and was now runnning around like this? Well, that's one guy for whom reinsertion didn't work. At least the policeman's kid made it out alive.
I see this as part of a trend, which I find more threadworthy

Not sure what you meant by this though:
Quote
Quote
The main question for anti-terrorism investigators now is whether Abballa had accomplices or was part of a larger network. Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said late Tuesday on France 2 TV that it appeared at this early stage "most probable" that Abballa acted alone, though that must be confirmed by the investigation.
Earlier in the day, three people —ages 27, 29 and 44 — were detained in the investigation, Molins said. Two had been convicted with Abballa in 2013 for involvement in a network recruiting for jihad in Pakistan, a French official said.
One does wonder what most of the cells in Europe are up to, it is rather unusual to have terrorist groups willing to be political and militiant. More dangerous imo when they get more sophisticated
Isn't "political and militant" part of the definition of terrorist?
Terrorism is notoriously hard to define, I use the definition of terrorism as strategy - the strategy in which one targets things or people of opportunity to maximize terror in a population for some political motive, and a terrorist is one who adopts this strategy. I do not for example wish to concede so easily, whether the Kurdish armed branch are terrorists in Turkey, even though they are political and militant - a separate issue, though now I wonder whether it is at all a separate issue.

Sheb

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 03:52:33 pm »

True, but how can you be a terrorrist without being political and militant?
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Morrigi

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2016, 03:59:10 pm »

Religion of Pieces strikes again.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2016, 04:22:47 pm »

True, but how can you be a terrorrist without being political and militant?
By engaging in terror attacks

Sheb

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2016, 04:24:02 pm »

But...

Ok.

Can you give me an exemple of a non-political, non-militant terrorist group? I think we just have different definitions here.
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Sonlirain

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 04:30:09 pm »

True, but how can you be a terrorrist without being political and militant?
By engaging in terror attacks
Well you still need to be militant anyway and most terror attacks end up becoming political issues anyway.
But...

Ok.

Can you give me an exemple of a non-political, non-militant terrorist group? I think we just have different definitions here.
Greenpeace?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace_Arctic_Sunrise_ship_case
Quote
On 18 September 2013, four RHIB inflatables were launched from the Arctic Sunrise from its position in the Pechora Sea.[6] The RHIBs carried Greenpeace activists and crew members towards Gazprom's Prirazlomnaya drilling platform. At the time of the action, the Arctic Sunrise tweeted "We're going to try and stop the drilling.",[7] although subsequently Greenpeace have stated that their aim was to hang banners on the oil rig to call for an end to Arctic drilling.[8] Two activists managed to attach themselves to the platform and attempted to climb, despite being blasted with water, while another activist tried unsuccessfully to become attached to the platform. The Russian coastguard fired warning shots from AK-74 rifles and four warning shots from a cannon on board the Ladoga coastal patrol vessel.[8] The two activists were removed from the platform and held on board the coastguard vessel, although it was unclear whether or not they had been placed under arrest.[9][10][11]
They basically wanted to illegally board an oil rig and interfere with the drilling... then again they are kinda political i guess.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 04:40:19 pm by Sonlirain »
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Sheb

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2016, 04:42:24 pm »

I would call them political, potentially militant, but not terrorists.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2016, 04:44:24 pm »

But...

Ok.

Can you give me an exemple of a non-political, non-militant terrorist group? I think we just have different definitions here.
The Joker in The Dark Knight.
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Sonlirain

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2016, 04:45:44 pm »

I would call them political, potentially militant, but not terrorists.
Well they also rammed whaling ships on occasion.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2016, 04:56:25 pm »

But...
Ok.
Can you give me an exemple of a non-political, non-militant terrorist group? I think we just have different definitions here.
I dunno, wouldn't a group be political or militant? Yeah the definitions thing is very annoying, IIRC Reuters news tries to avoid ever mentioning the words "terrorism" or "terrorist" explicitly for the reason that everyone has a very hard time defining what the hell they are xD

Flying Dice

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 04:59:01 pm »

Pretty much all reputable definitions of terrorism explicitly note it as violence conducted in the pursuit of political goals.

It's arguably also impossible for a terrorist or terrorist group to not be militant, given that a willingness to commit serious acts of violence in the pursuit of political goals is markedly more extreme than the normal approach to politics.

But...

Ok.

Can you give me an exemple of a non-political, non-militant terrorist group? I think we just have different definitions here.
The Joker in The Dark Knight.
This is about the closest you'll come to an apolitical terrorist (and it's telling that it's a fictional example), but it's arguable that the Joker still had a political aim, albeit one which focused on an extreme microcosm of society. Generally people like this in the real world are described as mass-killers or serial killers, rather than terrorists, precisely because they have no coherent political goal driving their violence.

Here's a useful excerpt from SAGE regarding the many definitions of terrorism used by scholars of political science:
The systematic use of terror or violence to achieve political goals. This definition of terrorism is not wholly adequate; more than 100 definitions of this term exist because there are many types of terrorism that differ in time, motivation, and manifestations, and there is no agreed-on definition. Nevertheless, elements of terrorism that are generally agreed on are its use or threatened use of violence to achieve some political aim, the acquisition and use of power, and the planned, calculated, and systematic characteristics of the act itself. Although terrorists themselves may embrace a specific ideology that justifies their acts, terrorism itself is not an ideology but rather one of the oldest forms of violence.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 05:00:27 pm »

Would the individuals of the media branch of ISIS count as terrorists if they are only involved in spreading panic through psyops, and not actual militancy?

Shadowlord

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Re: Jihadi stabs Police Officer in France
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2016, 05:04:05 pm »

Interesting that it comes up again and again, how they seemed like normal and friendly people. The most puzzling thing is I don't think any of them are lying, so one does wonder why normal seeming people take up the sword to kill their fellow man, even taking into account religious doctrine. There's plenty more religious people not killing everyone on the streets for example

The same reason the USA invaded Afghanistan, the same reason Israel bombs the fuck out of and occasionally invades Palestine, and the same reason Hamas shoots rockets at and attacks Israel? "Blood calls out for blood."
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