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[Adam Mantine]

Traditional myth is chock full of references to people being kidnapped by elves. I think it would be cool if things were set up so that about 25% of elven civilizations gained either the [BABYSNATCHER] trait and/or a softer stance on slavery and tenancy to press-gang unwary travelers

[Reelya]

You can already do this through modding. However, to get "25%" would be the hard bit. Tags either exist, or they don't exist. So to get 25% of civilizations having the tag would require you to make 4 Elven civilizations, where 3 out of 4 lack it.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to have tags appear with a specific frequency whenever an entity is spawned? This would have amazing consequences for worldgen entities, and even personalizing creatures.

One way would be to append a probablity value to the start of a tag:

[0.25:BABYSNATCHER] - would only get added 25% of the time.

But sometimes we want TAGA or TAGB. Maybe the vertical pipe character for the "else":

[0.25:TAG1:VALUE1:VALUE2|TAG2:VALUE3:VALUE4]

This would be nice, but still has limits. e.g. sometimes we don't want to just add "this tag, or that tag" we want to add sets of tags. So perhaps going whole hog and implementing IF / ELSE / ENDIF as "preprocessor" tags would be good:

[IF:0.25] - 25% chance
 // put a set of tags here
[ELSE] - the else branch
 // a different set of tags
[ENDIF] - needed to close the IF section

That would solve the variable-chance problem in the most versatile way possible, but it would be nice if the two "shorthand" versions also worked.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I like the whole "variable chances" idea, it'd be great for reactions.

However, one must remember the flavour of DF elves. They're more Tolkien-inspired than fey.

[Reelya]

My idea was for a random chance for tags to appear when something is spawned. But there's a little interpretation to be done as to what "spawn" actually means.

e.g. for entities, it's fairly straightforward. We'd see each entity as a template, and each civilization as an example of that template, so applying any random variations when a civ is spawn isn't too picky.

for e.g. a creature, we have more fundamental questions. Do we roll random tags for all instances of a species? This would give world-vs-world level differences. Or do we seed multiple populations of each species, and each variant gets a set of those tags? This would create unique sub-species in each game. Or do we roll differences at the individual level?

The same for a reaction. Would the game determine random tags for the whole world, for each entity that has access to that reaction, or literally every time the reaction occurs?
 
So we can see there are about three levels where we'd like to see random chance tags appear and be controllable. The world, the group, and the individual. This could be disambiguated by having qualifiers on when each IF statement is processed. e.g. IF:GLOBAL to do the roll once for a world. IF:GROUP to do it by entity or sub-populations. And just IF would be for individuals - what that means would depend on context , e.g. IF and IF_GROUP would be synonyms for ENTITY, but not not necessarily for creatures.

One cool use for this set up would be sub-species that can still interbreed. When the world is created, each creature generates multiple variants (as unique creature types) based on any random tags they have. But these creature types would still be allowed to interbreed, because they'd be linked as belonging to one original template. And it would be extra cool if that system would eventually allow things like human/elf interbreeding to be specified in the raws, by defining both as variants of a DEMIHUMAN type, along with labeling all variant tags in each.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

That's certainly an interesting way to go about interbreeding, though one could argue that a simple [INTERBREED:HUMANOID] tag would be simpler.

What gets me excited is the way these global/group/individual if/else tags could be used in basically any part of the raws. Even names. So if a really motivated and skilled modder had a certain idea...

...we could have random DF before the planned implementation.

I don't know about you, but that sounds awesome to me. Just like the syndromes/interactions: they were Turing-complete or something, and they have incredible potential that Toady (IIRC) did not plan for. It's even a framework for a great many mods and hacks. This random-raw thing could be the next big thing for modders! Even if it's not, it'll become vastly more powerful as more things are raw-ified, as it'll gain a greater range of possible use.

[SixOfSpades]

However, one must remember the flavour of DF elves. They're more Tolkien-inspired than fey.

That's highly debatable.

DF elves worship a monotheistic "nature" force. In contrast, Tolkien elves have full knowledge of the rich pantheon of Valar & Maiar--in fact, the other races' familiarity with the gods (and devotion to them) is but a hollow echo of the actual contact that the elves have enjoyed.

DF elves eat their sentient kills, in fact the wiki states that they're the only race to do so. A Tolkien elf would shudder at the thought, and I believe that the only Tolkien race to have been depicted as accepting of such an act is the orcs.

DF elves have zero knowledge of metalwork. Tolkien elves are renowned for their skill at the forge, fully on par with the best dwarven smiths, especially with weapons--with the exceptions of Angrist (which was dwarf-make) and Grond (presumably the work of some Balrog, if not Morgoth himself), I cannot presently recall a single named weapon in the entire legendarium that wasn't forged by an elf.

DF elves live in treehouses. True, so do the Tolkien elves of Lothlorien. These elves also claim a forest as their realm--just as the inhabitants of Doriath and northern Greenwood/Mirkwood. But the similarities end there, in fact the great elven strongholds seem downright dwarven in form. No fewer than three of the six main capital cities--Menegroth, Nargothrond, and Thranduil's unnamed halls--were built entirely underground, and accessible only by a drawbridge over a river. Gondolin and Rivendell both seem largely human in their architectural layout & style, but Gondolin was hidden deep in the mountains and could be reached only by a long underground tunnel, while Rivendell was nestled tight in the foothills of the Misty Mountains. Only Lothlorien is truly forest-based, and not even Lorien elves display even the slightest hint of the bizarre wood-based hypersensitivity that is the primary defining trait of DF elves.

[Adam Mantine]

However, one must remember the flavour of DF elves. They're more Tolkien-inspired than fey.

That's highly debatable.

DF elves worship a monotheistic "nature" force. In contrast, Tolkien elves have full knowledge of the rich pantheon of Valar & Maiar--in fact, the other races' familiarity with the gods (and devotion to them) is but a hollow echo of the actual contact that the elves have enjoyed.

DF elves eat their sentient kills, in fact the wiki states that they're the only race to do so. A Tolkien elf would shudder at the thought, and I believe that the only Tolkien race to have been depicted as accepting of such an act is the orcs.

DF elves have zero knowledge of metalwork. Tolkien elves are renowned for their skill at the forge, fully on par with the best dwarven smiths, especially with weapons--with the exceptions of Angrist (which was dwarf-make) and Grond (presumably the work of some Balrog, if not Morgoth himself), I cannot presently recall a single named weapon in the entire legendarium that wasn't forged by an elf.

DF elves live in treehouses. True, so do the Tolkien elves of Lothlorien. These elves also claim a forest as their realm--just as the inhabitants of Doriath and northern Greenwood/Mirkwood. But the similarities end there, in fact the great elven strongholds seem downright dwarven in form. No fewer than three of the six main capital cities--Menegroth, Nargothrond, and Thranduil's unnamed halls--were built entirely underground, and accessible only by a drawbridge over a river. Gondolin and Rivendell both seem largely human in their architectural layout & style, but Gondolin was hidden deep in the mountains and could be reached only by a long underground tunnel, while Rivendell was nestled tight in the foothills of the Misty Mountains. Only Lothlorien is truly forest-based, and not even Lorien elves display even the slightest hint of the bizarre wood-based hypersensitivity that is the primary defining trait of DF elves.

I think that Doriath was also a forest realm.

Plus IIRC the elves (the ones that were old enough at any rate) were also in more or less unanimous agreement that the two glowing trees that lit the world during the first age were greatly superior to the sun and moon (which replaced the trees after they fell victim to one of Morgoth's schemes to plunge the world into eternal darkness)

The part about their craftsmanship rivaling the dwarves is spot on though. If anything, it was better. It was an elf that made the Silmarils.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I said more, not mostly. 
DF elves are certainly unique, but they resemble Tolkien-likes more than fey.

[Reelya]

Yeah, Elves in DF are more of a full-blown civilization on par with the others, and not the prankster / baby-stealing type seen in mythology. The idea of them abducting dwarves and humans as slave workers doesn't fit as well as it does for goblins.

What would be a nice thing to mod would be a fey/faerie race, which mixed babysnatching, Kobold thief, and gremlin's mischevious lever-pulling. So they wouldn't be a full-bown civilization, but they'd have camps and send various raiders to cause mischief.

[Thundercraft]

This is a good discussion about DF elves. Three other traits that set them apart from Tolkien elves:

• They reproduce at an incredibly prodigious rate - faster even than Goblins. They're like rabbits.
• Most all civs in DF reach adulthood at 12 years, including elves. But then, this separates them from elf tropes in general and not just Tolkien elves.
• In DF, there are only very minor physical differences between many of the civs - mostly appearance. This is especially true with Dwarves and Elves, where differences basically boil down to hair and eye color and their stats. They're the same size, with identical [BROADNESS], [HEIGHT], etc. But, again, this trait of DF elves sets them apart from elf tropes in general, not just Tolkien fiction.

DF elves are certainly unique, but they resemble Tolkien-likes more than fey.

Comparisons between anything in DF with Tolkien fiction always bothered me because they imply that Toady pulled from Tolkien fiction for inspiration more heavily than other sources. Did he even state what his inspirations were? If not, such comparisons seem unfair to me. (To be fair, though, modern fantasy, as a genre, owes a tremendous debt to J. R. R. Tolkien and his works!)

Perhaps he mostly made them up based on whim and need? Perhaps it was more a case of game needs dictating their traits, rather than inspiration from myth and fantasy? If Toady did pull from various sources, he probably picked traits to fill a need for a rapidly reproducing potential enemy equipped with only wood weapons (so that Fortress players would not necessarily attack them merely to gain loads of free metal goblinite).

That said, it's a very popular trope that Dwarves and Elves are nearly always at odds with each other, frequently leading to conflict. Once anyone decides to make a game in a fantasy setting that revolves around stereotypical Dwarves, it seems almost compulsory to include stereotypical Elves and then make them distrust and more-or-less despise each other.

[Reelya]

Idk about that. Elves as a full-blown civilization really stems completely from Tolkien. To claim otherwise is disingenuous. D&D, Warhammer, Warcraft, basically all games with the sames basic races as DF. They all pay homage to Tolkien in a big way, and it would be hubris to pretend otherwise.

The idea of elves and dwarves warring is entirely Tolkienesque and is not attributed in earlier mythology, partly because dwarfs and elves were often synonymous in medieval German texts.

[Bumber]

They seem most like wood elves (bosmer) from the Elder Scrolls, due to their cannibalism.

[Thundercraft]

Idk about that. Elves as a full-blown civilization really stems completely from Tolkien. To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Granted. But, perhaps you missed the part where I said, "...modern fantasy, as a genre, owes a tremendous debt to J. R. R. Tolkien and his works"? (Granted, it was an edit. Though, it came before your post.)

Of course modern depictions of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, and similar fantasy creatures were hugely influenced by Tolkien's works. However, J. R. R. Tolkien did not invent Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and similar. These originate in old myth and legends.

Anyway, to claim any fantasy work as having Tolkien as inspiration is to imply a direct correlation. That a given work of fantasy has an indirect correlation with Tolkien fiction is usually a given. (Though, that is not always the case.) If we must make such comparisons and talk about inspiration, it's more accurate to either speak of what the author actually admits was his or her inspiration or to at least compare it to the work of fantasy it most closely resembles.

The idea of elves and dwarves warring is entirely Tolkienesque and is not attributed in earlier mythology...

Granted. But that doesn't change the fact that the idea of conflict or friction between dwarves and elves has become so ingrained in modern depictions/perceptions that the general public is quite aware of this, even without having read his books or watching the films.

...partly because dwarfs and elves were often synonymous in medieval German texts.

It's not just elves and dwarves. Myths and legends don't always agree about certain details. Descriptions of some beings contradict each other. And they may have different names for the same creature. Sometimes it gets confusing. Dwarves and Gnomes are both associated with living underground and both have been described as natures spirits of the element of Earth.

They seem most like wood elves (bosmer) from the Elder Scrolls, due to their cannibalism.

Yes, the comparison is extremely apt. The name is very fitting, too: Wood Elves. They are described as "vicious" and "tree-folk". And their Green Pact, although different, does remind me of the fanaticism of DF Elves with regard to going to war with Dwarves over cutting too many trees or trying to sell them their wood products.

Their description here also reminds me of how DF Elves live:

...simple existence in harmony with the land, its wild beauty and wild creatures. In fact, their major cities are actually located in giant walking trees that roam the jungle province of Valenwood...

[Deboche]

Don't traditional myths call almost anything an elf? Kinda like fairies in Ireland are for the most part not at all like the stereotypical winged girls?

In any case, I think specific elves should kidnap other sentients if they're personally inclined to do so because they're so self-righteous.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

So like criminals!