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[Amperzand]

Keeping in mind the Thompson weighed like 12 pounds.

[milo christiansen]

Length matters just as much as weight, and short little subgun barrels are not what you want on a rifle...

I suppose we could do a carbine that would work, but separate dedicated systems would be better for now. Just arm the point man with a trench broom, and give the others a mix of R10s and a few RRs.

What happened to the idea that a proper assault rifle would be too hard to do? If it hadn't been for strenuous objections the R10 would be a mini-14, complete with select fire and all the other goodies you could ever want. Instead I designed a "lite" version with only half the nice stuff I really wanted, only to be told that it would be better to go with something much simpler (resulting in the revised R10 as posted by PI). (BTW: I fully support PI's revised R10, I think we should try to design it soon)

EDIT:

Subguns should also use a larger, heavier bullet with a lower powder load. This sacrifices range for power, while still having less recoil. Even the proposed 5.45x39 is a little too hot to make a good SMG round. It could be used (look at the AKS-74U) but it would not be as good as a proper heavy pistol round.

[Amperzand]

I concur.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

What happened to the idea that a proper assault rifle would be too hard to do?

Short answer? Nothing. My responses on the topic don't make it clear but I'm still for our current progression for the rifle. It's just conversation and thought sharing on the topic for me.

Subguns should also use a larger, heavier bullet with a lower powder load. This sacrifices range for power, while still having less recoil. Even the proposed 5.45x39 is a little too hot to make a good SMG round. It could be used (look at the AKS-74U) but it would not be as good as a proper heavy pistol round.

So my suggestion for changing the Trench Broom to use a more modern 12.5x30mm round is actually practical? Neat.

[Amperzand]

12.5x30mm is a fairly thumpy round, your recoil would likely become an issue.

[milo christiansen]

12.5x30 sounds a little... Large? 10mm auto (a fairly heavy hitting pistol/SMG round) is 10x25 and .45 APC is 11.43×23, so I guess 12.5x30 wouldn't be too extreme, but something a little lighter may (or may not) be better. But, yes, 12.5x30 would probably work fine, it would certainly have lots of short range stopping power (which is what you want in a SMG).

The closest thing I could find to 12.5x30 is 12.7x33 (also known as .50 Action Express). .50 AE is used only in big, powerful pistols such as the desert eagle.

[Aseaheru]

 Reminder that due to the construction of the "special" round it has less powder than a comparable cased round.

[Amperzand]

True. Although with 12.5x30, it's throwing a hell of a lot of lead to make up for it. Give us an estimate of the velocity on that thing?

[milo christiansen]

I totally forgot it was using that weird caseless design..

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Looks like it'd be something like 1,400ft/s if we go off of the .50 AE.

We could try to refine the 10x30 special itself somehow though previous attempts have been

The Thompson submachine gun used a 11.43x23mm round which would be only a bit smaller than a 10x30mm round.

Looking over the Trench Broom, its benefits are that it's light, cheap, and resistant to damage. With the use of a stick magazine, the only issue seems to be that it's a bit awkward to use. For revising it, I'm thinking we develop a 10x30mm modern round (smokeless, jacketed, etc) for use in the Trench Broom, possibly add a foregrip to it, and see if we can lower the cost a bit more.

[Funk]

The closest thing I could find to 12.5x30 is 12.7x33 (also known as .50 Action Express). .50 AE is used only in big, powerful pistols such as the desert eagle.

I was useing the Gabbett-Fairfax Mars pistol, the 1900's desert eagle as a base, hence the name we've got one step more with a .50 calibre round.
It should put out just over .45 Mars Long levels of power,  a lot of recoil for a pistol but easy for a full size submachine gun.

[Amperzand]

Not necessarily. That really makes it more of a carbine, submachine guns mainly exist to make automatic fire useful, more powerful rounds are counter to that.

[Funk]

Not necessarily. That really makes it more of a carbine, submachine guns mainly exist to make automatic fire useful, more powerful rounds are counter to that.

Carbines can be good.
A submachine gun is much better a teaming a round than a pistol, there more gun and better grips.

[Amperzand]

Very true.

[3_14159]

@Aseaheru: Anything else you need from us for the turn? Anything we can do to help you with it?