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Author Topic: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?  (Read 24490 times)

darkflagrance

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2016, 03:01:20 pm »
We'd actually most likely make custom creatures associated with any specific civ that we add. For example, a mystery dungeon civ would have a custom creature with wigglytuffs, kangaskhans, ampharos, duskull, persian, chatot, kecleon, etc. A human alongside pokemon civ might have humans and pokemon as castes in different hybrid creature.

The only thing missing might be gaits. Have you checked the error log?
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2016, 03:13:38 pm »
Quote from: darkflagrance on April 16, 2016, 03:01:20 pm
We'd actually most likely make custom creatures associated with any specific civ that we add. For example, a mystery dungeon civ would have a custom creature with wigglytuffs, kangaskhans, ampharos, duskull, persian, chatot, kecleon, etc. A human alongside pokemon civ might have humans and pokemon as castes in different hybrid creature.

The only thing missing might be gaits. Have you checked the error log?
I have. When I was testing arena mode earlier I got a crash when I tried to spawn in a ponyta. The log is actually loaded with stuff.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I checked and I didn't miss any files when I copied them over. So this is interesting. I wonder if this happened in the old version too? It might not be us. We can fix it anyways of course but, it's still interesting.


Also as a side note I'm almost starting to think it might actually be easier to write our own BDPs and such, and pretty much recreate the creatures ourselves.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 03:20:50 pm by Toxicshadow »
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darkflagrance

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2016, 06:26:52 pm »
It's probably fine then. So that would mean a lot of the work is already done. Perhaps just copy from quadruped body from a vanilla creature or another pokemon for the ones that are broken. Then making the entity files for the desired replacement civs would be the next step.
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2016, 07:00:40 pm »
Quote from: darkflagrance on April 16, 2016, 06:26:52 pm
It's probably fine then. So that would mean a lot of the work is already done. Perhaps just copy from quadruped body from a vanilla creature or another pokemon for the ones that are broken. Then making the entity files for the desired replacement civs would be the next step.
Excellent! So we're still feeling samurai-humans for the fort mode civ? I figured we could snag some of the different feudal Japan nobles for this civ's nobles. As for the Pokemon civs, the list of Pokemon by habitat page could be a guide. It goes up to 3rd gen, so, it gives us a start and then some. Do we want to divide it by habitat instead of type? It would add some nice variety to the different regions.

This would give us humans, grassland pokemon, forest pokemon, 'water's edge' pokemon, sea pokemon, cave pokemon, mountain pokemon, rough terrain pokemon, urban pokemon and rare pokemon. We'd have to do some manipulation of which biomes they get, we definitely couldn't limit it to exclusively grassland (thats more like common domestic anyways) for example.

Or we could get the different biomes from DF and make them their own civs. That would give us wetlands, forests, plains, deserts, oceans, murky pools, lakes, rivers (these 3 could be combined honestly), underground, mountain, and glacier/tundra.

Of course there's also egg groups we could base off of, which is amorphous, bug, ditto, dragon, fairy, field, flying, grass, human-like, mineral, monster, undiscovered, unknown, and water 1/2/3.

What do you think?
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AceSV

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2016, 09:48:37 pm »
Quote from: Toxicshadow on April 16, 2016, 07:00:40 pm
Or we could get the different biomes from DF and make them their own civs. That would give us wetlands, forests, plains, deserts, oceans, murky pools, lakes, rivers (these 3 could be combined honestly), underground, mountain, and glacier/tundra.

The DF can nit-pick biomes much more finely than that, if you want.  It might be useful to distinguish between rocky wastelands and deserts when placing rock-types or tropical jungles vs temperate forests.  I'm pretty sure pools, lakes and rivers do not work as a civilzation biome.  Ocean does work.  Note that for the purposes of pokemon appearance, there are several underground biomes, the 3 cavern layers, wet or dry, and the magma layer. 

I wouldn't mind taking an afternoon to distribute pokemon into DF biomes.  Any pointers before I start would be appreciated. 

I guess I don't see why they need to be samurai themed humans.  I would be perfectly happy having dwarves raise/fight pokemon. 
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2016, 10:16:28 pm »
Quote from: AceSV on April 16, 2016, 09:48:37 pm
Quote from: Toxicshadow on April 16, 2016, 07:00:40 pm
Or we could get the different biomes from DF and make them their own civs. That would give us wetlands, forests, plains, deserts, oceans, murky pools, lakes, rivers (these 3 could be combined honestly), underground, mountain, and glacier/tundra.

The DF can nit-pick biomes much more finely than that, if you want.  It might be useful to distinguish between rocky wastelands and deserts when placing rock-types or tropical jungles vs temperate forests.  I'm pretty sure pools, lakes and rivers do not work as a civilzation biome.  Ocean does work.  Note that for the purposes of pokemon appearance, there are several underground biomes, the 3 cavern layers, wet or dry, and the magma layer. 

I wouldn't mind taking an afternoon to distribute pokemon into DF biomes.  Any pointers before I start would be appreciated. 

I guess I don't see why they need to be samurai themed humans.  I would be perfectly happy having dwarves raise/fight pokemon.

That would be amazing if you divided them all up into different civs for this project. Just think about the games and the anime, and use your instinct as to where you think pokemon would be.

The samurai thing was just what we came up with. The anime supports it, there's plenty of references to feudal Japan in it. You're right though, I mean it doesn't *have* to be feudal-Japan-like. It very well could be a mix of Pokemon and DF, instead of just a conversion.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2016, 11:09:35 pm »
Dwarves or humans is essentially a flavor decision. Humans in this mod are essentially kobolds from kobold camp: primitive outclassed beings trying to survive attacks from a hostile, inconceivable world and make it out on wits alone. Dwarves have more artifice to face the unknown with.

Also, maybe we should make caverns extremely hostile so that it becomes easy to "dig too deep".
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2016, 12:29:06 pm »
Quote from: darkflagrance on April 16, 2016, 11:09:35 pm
Also, maybe we should make caverns extremely hostile so that it becomes easy to "dig too deep".
They probably will be whether we intend to or not, I mean they'll be loaded with unowns and gravelers and onixes.....

Anyways, I started on the berries. The old mod actually had syndromes and had effects, as well as a couple of the berries already written, but I decided to just rewrite our own. I did the first 20, from cheri to pinap. There's a bunch of different biomes and this version of the file should populate the world everywhere with atleast 1 or 2 plants.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If anyone wants to go over it, make some revisions, check for typos and whatnot, be our guest  :) I figured this was a start though.
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AceSV

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2016, 12:57:30 pm »
I've done most of Generation I, II, III.

For the most part, I've picked biomed based on the life-form that the pokemon was based on, but I've been trying to keep it kind of balanced too.  The original games were based on Japan's biomes, so the game/anime suggestions aren't well balanced for DF biomes.  Right now, each evolution group appears in only one biome. 

There were a bunch of pokemon that could go pretty much anywhere, mostly from GenIII.  I've skipped them for now so we can deliberate. 

I also skipped the starters because I don't know if you want to allow them to run around freely, of they should only be obtained throw special interactions.  Entries with a ? on them are pokemon that have to be obtained specially in the games, and might want to be handled differently from their earlier evolutions. 

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« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 01:04:28 pm by AceSV »
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2016, 01:27:36 pm »
Wow thats great! Great job AceSV!  :D

I'm pretty impartial about most of these but, Duskull/Dusclops I feel like definitely belong in underground 2/3. Solrock and Lunatone and Baltoy/Claydol could probably be tossed in DESERT_ROCK.

Dunsparce, Snubbull, Granbull, Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, and Illumise could all go into ANY_GRASSLAND or GRASSLAND_TEMPERATE.

Kecleon is definitely a FOREST_TEMPERATE_BROADLEAF.

The rest I'm not sure what we'd put them in. MAYBE Shuppet and Chimecho could go in underground 2/3 with Duskull/Dusclops.

Anyways though, like I said, excellent job, well done!
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AceSV

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2016, 03:25:59 pm »
Okay, here's the revised list with nothing skipped, except for starters and legendaries. 

I've moved some things around since the previous one.  The Tropical Wetland was looking kinda bare, so it got a lot of the left-overs.  I prefer to space out the types, so that mountains are not all rock types or forests are not all plant types, so that will explain a few oddities you might see.  The only really weird thing was that I put Nosepass in the Tropical Ocean, thinking that it will crawl out of the water and walk around on the beach like a crab. 

Should I do the later generations as well?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2016, 03:51:34 pm »
I think it's alright for now, it'll be a while before we get to gen 4+.

Next two orders of business would be entities and the creatures themselves. For the moment we can put legendaries on hold and just make them fanciful and known by all civs. We're going to need to decide which pokemon are COMMON_DOMESTIC, which we want to be PET and not PET_EXOTIC (meaning not tamed in worldgen but still tameable), which to be UBIQUITOUS, and lastly which to be WAGON_PULLER/PACK_ANIMAL. We will need to make a wagon puller creature before others if we want the game to be testable without other creatures, because if you aren't already aware, a lack of wagon pullers makes for serious complications.

If we decide to go with dwarves as our entity, it solves the ethical issues of eating Pokemon. Dwarves wouldn't give a s***. The first series of the anime makes plenty of references to Pokemon once being eaten, as do a few of the games, but it was later scrapped as being an ethical issue.

Lastly, as a final prerequisite before starting creatures, do we want them (and their entities? are we still going with entities of pokemon) to be based on egg groups, the now-completed list of areas Pokemon will be found, or something else? Personally I still think the creatures should be based on their evolution chains, with each one as castes. It solves the issue of an onix and a magby doing the do and producing a slugma.

I think it kinda makes sense having both wild and civs of the same pokemon. Some decide to gather in groups, others just hangout in their biome. Up for debate though for sure.


Anyways, as a side note, I'm going through some tough life-stuff so, I'll probably be going off and on between not being around much and being around all the time. It's nice having a project to distract myself with  :P
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2016, 04:23:15 pm »
Yeah, most of the specific mechanisms in the Pokemon world are pretty much unworkable in DF, so I'd say just have them be animals and set the game in the past.  No need to do the whole egg group thing I think, just make the evolution chains represent a species.

Evolution can be tricky though.  DF doesn't really work well with multi-stage transformations OR growth over time.  Also, worldgen usually can't handle it.

One possible mechanism: make a single, massive "evolution" interaction that has a specific syndrome effect for each pokemon species transforming it into its evolved form after a certain amount of time with a certain (low) probability.  Then, attach that interaction to EVERY pokemon melee attack.  Whenever a pokemon is injured in melee, it has a chance of triggering its evolution, which (if it is triggered) will occur later.  This is probably the only way to make it work in worldgen.

Every pokemon should have the LARGE_PREDATOR tag, even small or herbivorous ones.  Small species should have high bravery so they don't run away immediately (unless they are supposed to, like abra or something).  They do attack trainers who wander through their territory, after all.

Also worth noting: If they have the CAN_LEARN tag, they will be functionally sapient, pets will be citizens, and they will not be eaten.  Kind of annoying, since growing stronger through battle is kind of pokemon's whole deal.  They will become leaner and more muscular if they fight regularly, so not all is lost.
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2016, 04:31:42 pm »
Quote from: IndigoFenix on April 17, 2016, 04:23:15 pm
Yeah, most of the specific mechanisms in the Pokemon world are pretty much unworkable in DF, so I'd say just have them be animals and set the game in the past.  No need to do the whole egg group thing I think, just make the evolution chains represent a species.

Evolution can be tricky though.  DF doesn't really work well with multi-stage transformations OR growth over time.  Also, worldgen usually can't handle it.

One possible mechanism: make a single, massive "evolution" interaction that has a specific syndrome effect for each pokemon species transforming it into its evolved form after a certain amount of time with a certain (low) probability.  Then, attach that interaction to EVERY pokemon melee attack.  Whenever a pokemon is injured in melee, it has a chance of triggering its evolution, which (if it is triggered) will occur later.  This is probably the only way to make it work in worldgen.

Every pokemon should have the LARGE_PREDATOR tag, even small or herbivorous ones.  Small species should have high bravery so they don't run away immediately (unless they are supposed to, like abra or something).  They do attack trainers who wander through their territory, after all.

Also worth noting: If they have the CAN_LEARN tag, they will be functionally sapient, pets will be citizens, and they will not be eaten.  Kind of annoying, since growing stronger through battle is kind of pokemon's whole deal.  They will become leaner and more muscular if they fight regularly, so not all is lost.
What you described for evolution is almost exactly how the previous mod handled it. One giant syndrome for all the different pokemon, with each of them listed.

On the note for LARGE_PREDATOR, the wiki mentions
Quote from: DF Wiki
Only one group of "large predators" will appear on any given map
Meaning on any given map you could end up with nothing but Magikarp, or nothing but Steelix way down in the caverns. This seems problematic lol. Its a shame LIKES_FIGHTING has been deprecated, I'm not sure if there's a replacement tag.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2016, 04:41:54 pm »
Give them the prone to anger tag that badgers have. You can try editing their personalities as well so they are super-brave and love to brawl, which definitely has effects on your citizens in fortress mode.
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