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[TheFlame52]

No seriously, hear me out.

I've generated ten worlds and taken notes on each one. I used vanilla raws except letting every race be playable and giving humans a death god every time. I generated each world for 250 years, omitting worlds where one or more nations were inaccessible from the mainland. The average number of nations per race is 3, but the number varies. Kobolds were not included with the experiment because they don't matter. If you really want to know the rest of the settings they are below.

Spoiler: Worldgen settings (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:SMALL ISLAND]
[DIM:65:65]
[EMBARK_POINTS:1504]
[END_YEAR:250]
[BEAST_END_YEAR:100:80]
[REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
[CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
[ELEVATION:1:400:800:800]
[RAINFALL:0:100:101:101]
[TEMPERATURE:25:75:101:101]
[DRAINAGE:0:100:101:101]
[VOLCANISM:0:100:101:101]
[SAVAGERY:0:100:101:101]
[ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:3:2:0:1:0:1]
[RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
[POLE:NORTH_AND_OR_SOUTH]
[MINERAL_SCARCITY:2500]
[MEGABEAST_CAP:8]
[SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:12]
[TITAN_NUMBER:6]
[TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
[DEMON_NUMBER:20]
[NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:8]
[BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:8]
[VAMPIRE_NUMBER:8]
[WEREBEAST_NUMBER:4]
[SECRET_NUMBER:1]
[REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:5]
[DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:1]
[EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:5]
[EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:5]
[GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:1]
[GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:1:16:0]
[EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:1:16:0]
[PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:1]
[PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:4]
[VOLCANO_MIN:1]
[REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
[EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:250]
[RIVER_MINS:5:5]
[PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
[OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
[SUBREGION_MAX:2750]
[CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:3]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
[CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
[HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:5]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
[LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
[LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
[CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
[CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
[MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:2]
[NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:3]
[ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
[SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
[TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:15]
[TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:22500]
[SITE_CAP:400]
[PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
[ELEVATION_RANGES:136:272:136]
[RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
[DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]

And now the data:

World 1
 - 29804 humans
 - 20016 goblins
 - 15138 dwarves
 - 4392 elves
Notes: 2/3 elven nations gone, 1/3 dwarven nations gone

World 2
 - 26957 elves
 - 18035 humans
 - 15931 goblins
 - 117 dwarves
Notes: 3/3 dwarven nations gone, 2/4 goblin nations gone (an extra one)

World 3
 - 25804 humans
 - 16809 dwarves
 - 11072 goblins
 - 4097 elves
Notes: 1/3 dwarven nations gone, 1/3 elven nations gone, 1/3 goblin nations gone
One more elven nation is almost dead

World 4
 - 31551 elves
 - 27640 goblins
 - 9654 humans
 - 2958 dwarves
Notes: 1/2 dwarven nations dead, 1/4 elven nations dead, 1/4 human nations dead
An elven and a human nation are almost dead
4 goblin nations
Elves aren't really winning, there are a lot of goblin elves

World 5
 - 22541 humans
 - 17833 dwarves
 - 15008 goblins
 - 0 elves
Notes: 1/4 dwarven nations dead, 2/3 goblin nations dead
No elven civs were generated (no forests, just marshes)

World 6
 - 22084 dwarves
 - 20251 humans
 - 12733 goblins
 - 6000 elves
Notes: 2/3 elven nations gone, 1/3 goblin nations gone
Dwarves are winning only because everyone else killed each other

World 7
 - 50901 humans
 - 14512 goblins
 - 5262 elves
 - 4409 dwarves
Notes: 2/3 dwarven nations gone, 2/4 elven nations gone
One more elven nation almost gone
This world has 10 towers because a weasel woman necromancer founded six of them

World 8
 - 33758 humans
 - 10194 dwarves
 - 5329 goblins
 - 0 elves
Notes: 2/4 dwarven nations gone, 2/4 goblin nations gone
No forests again

World 9
 - 22594 elves
 - 19725 humans
 - 15393 goblins
 - 9894 dwarves
Notes: 2/3 dwarven nations gone, 1/3 elven nations gone, 1/3 goblin nations gone, 1/3 human nations gone

World 10
 - 34566 humans
 - 16005 goblins
 - 12480 elves
 - 12 dwarves
Notes: 1/1 dwarven nation gone, 3/4 elven nations gone
All remaining dwarves live in one hillock except a necromancer
Goblins attacked and destroyed a kobold cave

Average places
humans - 1.5
goblins - 2.6
elves - 2.625
dwarves - 3

Worlds with no elves at all were omitted from the elves' average.

Now, 10 worlds may not been a big sample, but these findings support what I've seen in other worlds. Humans usually "win" - they like to conquer the elves and goblins and take over their sites. Humans' varied personalities and values occasionally spit out the perfect general. Goblins tend to attack everyone and breed like rabbits. If goblins "win" it's usually because their master isn't a pacifist and leads his troops personally. Elves also breed like rabbits and if left alone can outpace everyone.

Dwarves never attack anyone. They only defend. Even then they usually take more casualties than the enemy - even if the enemy is elves. A defending nation can only lose - if an attacking nation loses, they retreat and try again. If a defending nation loses, they're dead and gone.

Dwarves' sites are prone to FB attacks, and I have never seen an FB get killed in worldgen. Dwarves breed slowly, and an early megabeast attack on their capital can destroy their population expansion. Dwarves are losers in worldgen. This is the exact opposite of how they are in fort mode.

So now that the problem has been identified, what can we do about it?

[Geltor]

well, people usually cite that its not in the dwarven nature to launch invasions (or even counterattack) other factions. i personally would like to see dwarves still remain the non-instigators yet put up a good attack.

or, better yet, have dwarven subcultures that bypass this. one dwarven faction could be based more around sacking other sites, while others may focus on more scholarly endeavors.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Omitting worlds in which elves get wiped out, then declaring dwarves the losers seems a bit off. It's pretty hard to actually get elves to survive these days unless they start on a island. I'd say with a bigger sample at maybe 500 years would reveal elves to be very much the worldgen losers.

[Urist McVoyager]

Worlds where elves got wiped out weren't omitted. Worlds without elves were omitted, but the only ones we saw like that were the ones where their biome didn't exist. There never were any elves to get wiped out in the first place. Unless you want to include biome availability in your judgment, it makes no sense to include those worlds in the average.

[TheFlame52]

I will do 10 more worlds with 500 years, also I will be omitting worlds without elves.

[LMeire]

I've always likened Dwarven warfare to the Russian strategy of "General Winter", except temperature doesn't fluctuate all that much and besieging armies apparently don't need to eat so even barren glaciers aren't much of a deterrent. If invaders could suffer casualties from the biome/season they're currently in it would do a lot for the defenders.

[Witty]

I've always likened Dwarven warfare to the Russian strategy of "General Winter", except temperature doesn't fluctuate all that much and besieging armies apparently don't need to eat so even barren glaciers aren't much of a deterrent. If invaders could suffer casualties from the biome/season they're currently in it would do a lot for the defenders.

That'd certainly even the odds a bit. Hell, assaulting a mountain period would be no easy task either - especially if the defenders are literal mountain people.

This really just stems from worldgen warfare still being fairly undeveloped. I'm sure once more variables are added things'll improve.

[Baffler]

It certainly confirms the stereotype. Dwarves are usually (with notable exceptions) shown in fiction as in decline or having already disappeared, with an unwillingness to leave their long-established territory either due to tradition, stubbornness, or just lacking the resources to expand. This seems pretty well in line with that sort of portrayal.

[DG]

I generate way too many worlds than I should and dwarves usually die quickly, followed closely by elves. When I check the exports there's almost always a forgotten beast sitting in the dwarf civ orig fortress.  I don't know if dwarves get wiped out more often because they are exposed to forgotten beasts, or if after they are wiped out one moves in, but I thought I'd mention my anecdotal evidence anyway. I've never tried it with FBs disabled.

[Pvt. Pirate]

changing how the worldgen dwarven mountainhomes and other sites generate stairwells would make those sites more save.
i reclaimed three of such sites as an embark and in most cases they have a main stairwell from the top leading down through the cave layer, then comes

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

a living area, a forge area

and without any kind of door inbetween, the main stairwell leads further downward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_(fire_protection)
is the key to didding down into dangerous terrain and still retaining some amount of safety for the upper levels.
as long as that is NULL in any worldgen sites, dorfs will always awaken a FB and either get wiped out or severely weakened - soemtimes weakened to the point where they cannot withstand the attack of a single goblin squirrel.

[Libash_Thunderhead]

My current world is 10000 years old and there were only goblins and humans before I relaimed an old fort.

[TheFlame52]

I've generated four 500 year worlds so far and elves are still beating dwarves.

EDIT: I have discovered another disturbing fact - nations with vampire rulers tend to do better in the long term.

[Max™]

World-gen forts suck. They do great since I had them make towns.

Code: [Select]

Civilized World Population

        34337 Dwarves
        8936 Humans
        5605 Elves
        448 Goblins

        Total: 49326


[feelotraveller]

So now that the problem has been identified, what can we do about it?

Interesting science and nice to see the numbers.   

I'm not sure there is a problem for the vanilla game though, at least as I understand it panning out.  The player is meant to be inspiring the dwarfs to greatness.  Once possible I'm sure we will see a spate of players leading their dwarfly armies to death and pestilence world domination.  And the call will go out to make the other races more competitive.  However it could be a problem for mods which make other races playable or for those strange peaceful dwarfs. 

Can't see any point trying to balance it until world interaction is more or less complete.  A quick fix at this point would just be to increase the number of dwarf civilisations somewhat to compensate for their more likely demise.  Scale to fit the length of worldgen.

[Atomisk]

goblins dominate all my worlds. Every world i make has 600+ goblins and 300 humans, elves, and almost no dwarves to speak of. I tried changing the raws, making it so goblins die of old age and eat and drink. Then i started generating same sized worlds with 2000 goblins. Noone else alive. Explain that to me.