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Author Topic: Dying in RPGs  (Read 15365 times)

a1s

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2016, 05:53:01 am »

We don't have anything that actually heals damage yet, but we have stuff that stops bleeding and infections.
A cocktail of blood clotters, pain killers, and stimulants could be a kind of "healing potion" if you care more about surviving the hour, than the year.  :-\
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Mech#4

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2016, 06:15:59 am »

I don't know if it's ever really explained how healing potions work in games. Thinking of Forgotten Realms they're described as a mixture of magic and alchemy but I think some other potions are created by casting the spell you want onto the bottle (like potions of Bull Strength) so the liquid could be just water enchanted with the appropriate spell.

There is a potion called "Mummy's Tea" that is described as being made from liquid soaked in mummy wrappings that cures diseases. I can't remember the descriptions of any other potions in particular other than that one.
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a1s

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2016, 07:44:16 am »

Thinking of Forgotten Realms they're described as a mixture of magic and alchemy but<...> the liquid could be just water enchanted with the appropriate spell.
That's not actually a contradiction. Remember that spells have material components. F.E.: Bull's Strength might be bull's dung and hair dissolved in an alcohol solution. Probably with some lemon added to improve the taste/smell.
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Mech#4

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2016, 11:20:47 pm »

Ah, yeah. I had forgotten that spells required reagents. Is that only for wizards or do clerics need reagents for their healing spells? I think they need a focus like a holy symbol, yes?
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Hanzoku

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2016, 01:44:08 am »

Specific spells have material components, like Resurrection.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2016, 03:44:45 pm »

I think there's no problem with healing and resurrection in games because almost nobody will get them anyway. The following might seem like a tangent, but it's in support of what I'm saying.

I think part of why people are confused or have weird opinions about magic and money in games is that they're seeing a skewed perspective on the world, and viewing that perspective through their own ideas and beliefs. So, a two-parter.

First, the game is about adventurers. You want the game to be exciting so the player does all the cool stuff and gets all the treasure. An extremely small number of people in the game world are doing those things. It's like watching The Rock go through his day and going off on an insane tangent about how the world can't sustain enough cod production to feed 6+ billion people.

You think it's easy to get healing potions? That's just because you're in the big dungeon slaying monsters. That treasure represents centuries of stored labor and value for the countryside all around, like petroleum fuels as stored solar energy. Just because you can kill ten rats and there's a potion in their nest doesn't mean every ratcatcher in town ends up with a magical hotel minibar at home.

You think Clerics are common just because you can choose to be one at character generation? Your character is special. Someone might argue that there's no rule against every single peasant becoming a Fighter or whatever. I say you must look at the company's published modules and sourcebooks, and from those see clearly that's not the case, and then try to figure out why the demographics are truly not the extreme you hope to imagine.

Spoiler: Farmers and Knights (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Fatality Rates (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Costs of Doing Magic (click to show/hide)


Second, you view the game through your lens. You might say "why wouldn't the society try to train more spellcasters if magic is so valuable?" but I counter with "why doesn't American society just train up more scientists and engineers if science is so valuable?" You can't expect anyone to care about your opinion if you ignore how your knowledge blinds you to the way of life for other people. We take for granted the existence of nations, human rights, the industrial and information revolutions, modern communications, heck - even the idea that philosophy is a thing. If the fantasy world doesn't have those things, they lack a lot of the pieces you're working with when you try to optimize their lives. You also cannot ignore that few societies are in any way optimized even with draconian top-down planning.

Spoiler: Tippyverse (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Magic as Technology (click to show/hide)

In conclusion, the typical RPG represents a very weird perspective on the game setting and we can't expect to extrapolate what is available to the player as available to everyone in that setting. Once you take magical healing and resurrection away from the common people, it starts to matter to the world very little.
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Parsely

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2016, 06:32:36 pm »

I can totally see what you're saying, but your points are just a little too general. You dismiss high-magic settings, but that's ignoring the fact that there are high-magic settings where everyone is magic and can cast resurrection and this isn't acknowledged or explained.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2016, 04:27:15 am »

That's cool but the high-magic campaign answer makes the game into something weird. My example would be if the average soldier can expect to get healed using a potion he carries or a nearby battlefield medic, he becomes basically fearless. With easy resurrection you get behaviors like we see in FPS games with low respawn timers: Lenny could even start throwing himself at a castle wall to create a ramp of Lenny's corpses so he can run up it and leap into the courtyard. Just stupid stuff. See: Empire of the East (book 3 I believe) by Saberhagen, where Valkyries resurrect dead soldiers who wear a certain collar - you'd have to read the book. The question I have at that point is if restorative magic is so easy to come by, why isn't all magic easier?

Consider that in our world, entropy is easier than reversal of entropy. How easy it is to break a mirror or take a life than it is to make a mirror or raise a child. Typically magic works the same way anywhere I've seen it represented: a mid-level Wizard can Fireball a room full of people but the same level Cleric can typically heal a fraction of that amount, on a single person, by touch instead of at range, and generally with a higher casting time if that's in the game. An extreme example is how it takes between weeks and years to make a magic staff depending on the game, but someone can just chop it in half with an axe instantly.

So if everyone has a healing potion, why don't they have other magic items? Even single-use items like magical grenades, low-power items like communication devices and binoculars, and convenience items like pop-up tents and instant rations. Again, if healing is an order of magnitude harder to do than destruction, you would assume the average soldier who had a choice between a healing potion or a Fireball grenade would sometimes choose the grenade. And we're not talking about stuff that's exotic or unexpected, this is either what's already in the game or what a person in the game setting would want. Tired of pitching your own tents? Want to throw a Fireball like a Wizard does just by chucking a flask of magic oil? High-magic games tend to end up looking like Discworld on steroids or just sci-fi unless you ignore most everything.

A lot of tabletop games have DMs who go easy on the players by handing out a lot of healing items so it looks like the DM isn't the one keeping them from dying. Diabloesque games drop tons of healing potions so the game designer can give you a single-player experience without forcing everyone to play a healer (or giving everyone healing abilities like Guild Wars). Final Fantasy makes it really hard to die unless you decide to attack every turn instead of using Potion, X-Potion, etc. and even then Phoenix Downs are so common you wonder how many people drop dead only to randomly land on one and spring back up. Team Fortress and some other games feature a healer buff that incentivizes a person to berserker-rush into combat. Generally if a soldier in real life acted like the average player in an FPS we would run out of soldiers really quickly.

Easy healing also forces a weird "must focus fire on priests and doctors first" mentality that completely destroys any hope of roleplaying their real-world role as useful but not dangerous. In an FPS it's worthwhile to bomb hospitals because that's where low-health players are hiding out slowly healing up. And if you can destroy the hospital that's a great strategic boon because it means fresh reinforcements won't come as easily! Except in reality, armies love to injure but not kill soldiers because injured men drain more resources than dead ones, hospitals don't speed reinforcement except on a years-long production scale, and anyone bombing hospitals is considered a villain killing men for absolutely no strategic gain. In losing the civilian nature of healers (if not their neutrality), have we gained any worthwhile roleplaying for giving healers a military nature?

So either the high-magic game becomes something extremely different from a typical medieval fantasy RPG (violating any expectations that stem from that assumption - it might as well be sci-fi or theology or a mutant superhero game), or the game cheats by making healing way too available and keeps all the other magic down (violating our expectations that the fantasy world will typically work like ours does unless you have a damn good reason and you spell it out).

I haven't seen a game or setting that says "we're low magic in general but the Gods of Magic decreed that healing is super easy and all dogs go to heaven". I do remember a Hercules episode where Hades or whoever went on break and nobody healed naturally anymore. So people were unwilling to work or fight or be around others for fear of getting injured or sick.

Finally, a lot of games probably don't even intend to depict a high magic setting despite what you see in the gameplay. Think about how the real world would be different if Lara Croft's infinite pistol ammo, immunity to cold, and wound regeneration were common to even 1% of the population? Obviously the game isn't saying people are actually like that, it's just that the game would be less fun if you could run out of ammo, or couldn't see her rude titties under a heavy coat, or had to wait 6 months to continue playing while she healed up from that broken leg. I guarantee if we see Tomb Raider: Restocking At Walmart, they will sell pistol ammo on the shelves and NPCs will be buying it, and Lara still won't need any except maybe in a cutscene. (Yes I realize the latest TR games feature limited ammo. Back in the day there was no melee attack so you had to default to dual pistols which wouldn't run out of ammo). Some FPS games feature a "first aid" mechanic where anyone can revive a teammate, indefinitely, no matter how much blood or organ meat is lost under the hail of gunfire. Others feature regenerating health when you stop getting shot for a little while. The game isn't trying to say that's legit and worthy of philosophical investigation, only that the game would suck more without it.

So yeah there are high magic settings and dey get cray cray baby girl.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2016, 02:19:44 pm »

Just stupid stuff. See: Empire of the East (book 3 I believe) by Saberhagen, where Valkyries resurrect dead soldiers who wear a certain collar - you'd have to read the book. The question I have at that point is if restorative magic is so easy to come by, why isn't all magic easier?
That's not restorative magic, though. The Valkyries are pre-Change flying machines carrying people up to a lake of life - probably the last one in the world - a pre-Change invention which can heal injuries and revive the dead (and also to Draffut). In short, they're both technological inventions and the people of the series are incapable of recreating them because they usually don't understand pre-Change technology at all. Hell, the lake of life is beyond our current technology, even, along with some other things like Elephant, and the Change itself (But you can see some other simpler examples of technology in existence, like binoculars - which people still had never recreated)

The collars were easily countered in the one series of battles they were involved in, by cutting off heads and tossing the collars off the cliff, bridge, etc that the battles were being waged on, preventing the Valkyries from finding anyone to carry off to the lake of life.

The lake of life was also destroyed near the end of that same series of battles.

By the time of the Book of Swords and Book of Lost Swords sequel series(es), mages were wholly inadequate healers, and the only really effective healing capabilities belonged to Draffut (considered a god by most people) due to his extremely long exposure to the Lake of Life, and to the Sword Woundhealer, which also could not be reproduced.

Quote
Finally, a lot of games probably don't even intend to depict a high magic setting despite what you see in the gameplay. Think about how the real world would be different if Lara Croft's infinite pistol ammo, immunity to cold, and wound regeneration were common to even 1% of the population? Obviously the game isn't saying people are actually like that, it's just that the game would be less fun if you could run out of ammo, or couldn't see her rude titties under a heavy coat, or had to wait 6 months to continue playing while she healed up from that broken leg. I guarantee if we see Tomb Raider: Restocking At Walmart, they will sell pistol ammo on the shelves and NPCs will be buying it, and Lara still won't need any except maybe in a cutscene. (Yes I realize the latest TR games feature limited ammo. Back in the day there was no melee attack so you had to default to dual pistols which wouldn't run out of ammo). Some FPS games feature a "first aid" mechanic where anyone can revive a teammate, indefinitely, no matter how much blood or organ meat is lost under the hail of gunfire. Others feature regenerating health when you stop getting shot for a little while. The game isn't trying to say that's legit and worthy of philosophical investigation, only that the game would suck more without it.

That's all "we think it's more fun this way" though, and you can go look at other shooter games where you did have ammo, and medkits (which were pretty magical just for gameplay reasons), and if you're  ran out of ammo for all your weapons, well, you had better either run away and try to find more*, or try to beat your enemies to death with your Mighty Foot (You actually start that level without any ammo or guns because you were taken prisoner at the end of the previous one).

I'm assuming you're remember correctly about the first Tomb Raider games; I never played them. Remembering gameplay is easier than remembering the entire plot and all the events of a book, after all. (I just happen to have recently read Empire of the East, prior to starting to re-read the Swords series(es))

Some FPS games include a "first aid" mechanic where you can revive a teammate, but only so many times before they can't be revived again. I'm describing the Left 4 Dead series, of course. Really it all depends on what the game is trying to be.

* This happened a fair bit in Duke 3D LAN multiplayer

In the Dominions series of strategy games, nature mages create food magically every month (they increase supply) in addition to whatever they're already doing, and they can craft magic items that can produce a certain amount of supply (food) each month, forever. Mind you, supply is per-province, so to feed a large army in wastelands you may want a bunch of them, but it's a relatively simple task. There are also races and beings that don't need to eat at all. A sufficiently powerful mage can also, for instance, instantly conjure a castle into existence, expending only magical gems and one month of time. That is much more difficult than just making food, of course, but there is no way to magically destroy someone else's castles/forts.

P.S. entropy is confusing and reading its wikipedia article makes me wonder if you were even using it correctly, but like I said, it's confusing and gives a bunch of different apparently contradictory definitions, so I can't even tell. SO CONFUSING. So that's why I did not say "entropy" in that previous paragraph anywhere.



P.P.S. It might be interesting to design a system which used thermodynamics-like rules to govern the use of magical energy. Of course maybe it would turn into "it turns out magic works by drawing energy from the sun, and, well, ha ha, sucks to be the Tippyverse with its tremendously high magical energy expenditures..." Hell, create a post-tippyverse where refugees escape to other planets on other solar systems because "Well, the sun was dying!"

(Of course you also have systems like TES, where the "sun" isn't a sun, but a hole in the fabric of reality left by a fleeing god, through which magical energy flows into reality)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 02:26:49 pm by Shadowlord »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2016, 02:43:48 pm »

Of course, just because the sun powers magic doesn't mean that using magic will make it go out, just like the existence of plants and solar panels doesn't make it go out any sooner. :P
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Shadowlord

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2016, 02:51:29 pm »

Yeah, until you have to cover the sun in a dyson swarm because you need MOAR POWER. :P
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #101 on: May 03, 2016, 04:20:34 pm »

Oops, I was using "entropy" colloquially to mean the natural tendency toward disorder from a human standpoint. The action of oxidization for example turns a uniform piece of metal into rusty fragments, a healthy organism ages into a decrepit / injured / otherwise less effective one, folding a piece of paper degrades the strength of the fiber network and makes it more likely to tear and more vulnerable to moisture, wind scatters a sequential pack of playing cards into a pile of random ones. At the same time, it's extremely unlikely that the reverse would occur in each of those examples. From that perspective, thermodynamic entropy is a specific type of entropy. I didn't realize until now that Wikipedia didn't use the word in that general way. It's the second definition if you google "entropy definition" though.

re: Fear of resurrection failure
In early D&D you had a Resurrection Survival Chance, which meant if you failed a percentile roll your PC would be permanently and irrevocably dead instead of being brought back to life. I think it was there to instill some fear of death in a game where after 9th level you could typically expect to get raised. There were plenty of fates you couldn't Raise Dead from, like being eaten and digested, Green Slime, Disintegrate, etc.

But real people tend to behave in a way that is exactly as risky as they prefer. I forget what this is called officially. When things are made less dangerous, people tend to adapt by acting in ways that increase risk because those actions benefit them in other ways. For example, people will remove safety guards form machines and remove protective garments (PPE) while working, for comfort. Some motorcycle riders can be seen wearing virtually no safety equipment. Yet some roller-bladers wear a helmet and joint pads. I believe a person will behave to alter their safety margin depending on how likely and severe they believe injury to be. Which means you'd expect people who have never been injured to wear less PPE, and after an injury or accident to wear more PPE, and to wear less the longer it has been since the last accident.

Which suggests that people would act more dangerously the more likely they know healing and resurrection to be. I've definitely seen this happen in tabletop D&D games.

Young people are an interesting case. They typically are more likely to have never experienced a serious injury. They also have less experience in general, meaning they have witnessed fewer accidents. When they get injured, the injury is probably less serious than an older person would suffer in the same place (because the younger person is lighter, more athletic, springier, etc.) and also to recover from the injury much faster. So the experience of being injured is more forgiving for young people. In total, they have plenty of reasons to underappreciate the probability and severity of accidents, leading them to take on greater risks. I don't think I make any surprising statement there.

I think the Kool Aid Man would piss red drink into your chest cavity. Going back to Shadowlord's description of Empire of the East and the Valkyries, the book said the process was frequently a little off, and there were people who came back heavily scarred or misshapen. That would be an interesting take on resurrection limits. I've also seen a D&D blogger post something about the journey to death and back being spiritually scarring and wrote out a table of possible side effects (some positive, some mixed, most negative). Another blogger also talked about roleplaying the journey back like rescuing someone from Hades - and now I'm recalling an old-ass Mac game called Taskmaker where if you died you had to adventure back from Hell.

When Zak Smith put out a contest on his blog to come up with cool stuff using Twine and similar CYOA-style programs, I thought about two that might work: a lockpicking / trap disarming minigame, and an "escape from the afterlife" minigame. Both would engage that player at the table while the DM handled stuff with everyone else. But in the end I decided not to do either because I couldn't really see me using it in my games.
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nenjin

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #102 on: May 03, 2016, 07:49:45 pm »

I've always interpreted most death/dying situations that aren't explicitly explained (like say Dark Souls) as "movie-take reality."

When you watch an action flick you don't see the hero die and restart from some arbitrary point unless its directly part of the narrative. Similarly reloading pretty much any game from a save point is like doing a new take on a scene you've already tried and the lines didn't pan out, the lighting wasn't right, you got critted for 9999, whatever. Because you're the big hero and you're generally playing one variety of power fantasy or another.

When games aren't going out of their way to belabor the point (I'm not a fan of tongue-in-cheek references to game death within the game or tedious info dumps to explain a mechanic that's been in place for years), I tend not to think about it unless the game approaches the question in an interesting way, either mechanically or within the narrative. (Soul Reaver and Soul Reaver 2 are games I'd point to as examples of death making sense narratively and mechanically. It's been done many times since with pretty much any game where you're a vengeful ghost. (Dark Souls, Shadow of Mordor just off the top of my head as newer games.))

What I like least though are the tepid attempts at explaining death for immersion purposes. Like Vita chambers in Bioshock Infinite. Honestly, was maintaining the illusion that the player never died really worth all the effort? That much gesticulation and impossible, unexplained magical science just so you could have cinematic continuity ("Oh...I guess I'm not dead...Have at you!") and mechanical continuity? ("Ah the boss' health is right where I left it. Splendid.")

Growing up I just accepted death as a necessary conceit in games like FF when a dude could die from a sword thrust but a phoenix down or life spell would rez a dude hit by a meteor from outer space. Because in the end its in service to the story, and that's what really matters. (Or mattered then. Now with the way gamers today weave their own narratives about the games today it mean these questions are more meaningful.) Because death was something that happened to other characters, other people in the story, and I *always* did everything right because all my failure selves stopped existing the minute I re-loaded my game. That said, I do remember a lot of 80s games where you had really brutal deaths for the time and that had its own inherent shock value, that I think has lost all power over me as an adult. I used to love old arcade "CONTINUE?" screens because a lot featured your character getting closer and closer and closer to death....honorable mentions for one of the Ninja Gaiden arcade games where it was a buzz saw slowly lowering down onto you until the whole screen got splattered with blood. Metal.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:01:25 pm by nenjin »
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Parsely

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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #103 on: May 03, 2016, 07:56:18 pm »

Saving and loading is fine, that's not part of the game most of the time. And yes revival is a necessary gameplay conceit. I just wish there were explanations for them in the story. In System Shock 1 for example if you die, you get dragged back to a reanimation bay by a robot.
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Re: Dying in RPGs
« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2016, 06:04:33 am »

Of course it's quite possible to have an rpg where there is no revival and also no saving/loading - that's the idea of 'permadeath' which is one of the defining features of roguelike games (some of which are also rpgs). At least from a non-religious perspective this would mean  roguelikes and other games featuring permadeath have the most 'realistic' approach to death and revival, given that in real life revival is impossible (at least until we perfect cryogenesis or whole brain downloading or something) .
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