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FUCK YES LET'S LEAVE GET HYPE YEY

Casual yes, let's leave and get independence done with

Meh, probably just scribble all over my vote ballot to spite tryhards

Casual no, let's remain and get integration done with

FUCK NO LET'S REMAIN GET CALM YEY

[Neonivek]

So I am confused..,. If the Leave votes at LEAST want to stop migration and refugees

Why not do it? It is a democracy and it was one of the biggest talking points about Brexit.

I know not all leavers want to deport (ignoring that... they are doing a good job at convincing me otherwise... and did so before Brexit)

[Neonivek]

It is because the migration/refugee policies were strictly the UK's own, and had nothing to do with EU-enforced policies. The UK already got opt-outs for both, if I recall.

I might be horribly wrong on this, though.

So... The Leavers were tricked into thinking they were creating migration policies that benefited their view of the UK but really there was never any intent of going through with it?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is actually kinda funny.

It doesn't help that the major platforms have a racist undercurrent... Rather then the major force being that they want the UK to be incharge of their own destiny separate from the EU. OR that the leader of the Leave Party is a racist (and doesn't hide it)...

It would be "PETA represents all animal rights activists" all over again at best.

[Frumple]

Something like 70% of leave voters didn't expect to win, iirc. Basically no UK politician wanted a leave results. Intent regarding an actual leave was never really there, at all. This was basically political grandstanding that went right in the worst way possible for everyone indulging in it.

[Neonivek]

Something like 70% of leave voters didn't expect to win, iirc. Basically no UK politician wanted a leave results. Intent regarding an actual leave was never really there, at all. This was basically political grandstanding that went right in the worst way possible for everyone indulging in it.

So why campaign for Leave? Is it for some future election?

But not expecting to win isn't unusual... All the news outlets announced that they would stay and the general attitude was that stay was in the bag.

Nigel though certainly would campaign for Leave and mean it... (because he is Nigel >_>)

----

Also PLEASE Dr. Who do not touch Brexit! wait for the dust to clear!

[Frumple]

Some future election, yeah, more or less. Remain win would have meant the leave campaign's electorate would have been further embittered (i.e. more supportive of the campaign's political backers), and the parties behind it would still be able to lie out of their ass and blame most everything the british government was screwing up on the EU, which was probably half or better the reason many of them were still in office/power.

Also as a stick in negotiations with the EU -- like I mentioned, what they were doing/intending to do/still may end up doing was use the threat of leave largely like the republicans in the US use the threat of default, using the threat of economic ruin as a lever to get more preferential treatment. Was basically a bluff the EU couldn't afford to call, and a hand the UK politicians were better off* not actually playing, even if they had the cards for it. But forced hands and all that and now the EU is mostly telling them to put up or shut up :V

E: Though as near as I can tell from seeing all sides of the UK folks talking about this stuff, nigel is not actually a politician, but in reality an ambulatory pustule that has somehow managed to detach itself from britian's ass and started babbling at people. There's probably some that did actually want it (there always are), but... not many, and even them apparently couldn't be arsed to have an actual day 1 plan ready to go in case it happened.

*Especially from a domestic political standpoint; basically no one came into this mess having any goddamn idea what they were going to do if leave won; not the leave campaign, not the remain campaign, not random hobos in the street, which is why the current actions more or less boil down to panic and stall for time and some of their political parties are functionally imploding.

[palsch]

The conservative government couldn't have enacted a single one of those policies without the coalition government.  The Libs said that election reform was the reason to pick the tories over labor but they didn't get election reform, instead they got a silly farce of a referendum.  It was such poor negotiating on the part of the Libs that it would take Donald Trump to properly disparage their bargaining skills.

There were many reasons to take the Tories over Labour in 2010. The AV referendum was a Labour manifesto pledge that they refused to fully support during the initial Lib/Lab coalition talks and eventually sabotaged by failing to campaign as a unified party. Labour were a fractured party (the lines eventually settling into the battle between the Miliband brothers) and a minority or rainbow coalition would have crumbled quickly. Not to mention that, in 2010, Labour had been overseeing a grossly illiberal government.

So... The Leavers were tricked into thinking they were creating migration policies that benefited their view of the UK but really there was never any intent of going through with it?

Yep.

Not to mention that most moderate leavers would prefer to keep freedom of movement, it being core to our economic agreements with Europe and all.

So why campaign for Leave? Is it for some future election?

The Conservative leadership battle we are seeing forming up now. There was a Conservative right/Eurosceptic contingent available and Boris wanted it. Others, mostly backbenchers and UKIPers were genuinely out of principle, but the main leaders saw a chance to raise their profile on the right. The more stringent figures were outside the official campaign.

[Neonivek]

Not to mention that most moderate leavers would prefer to keep freedom of movement, it being core to our economic agreements with Europe and all.

I need to learn a bit more about these Moderate Leavers

Because right now all I am getting from the Leavers is mostly racist diatribe (no, not stretching the definition.) well except one person who basically said that the UK sucks too much to have refugees, what was certainly different.

I mean it is easy to pick on racists. Trump has a major racist platform with talk of Christian favoritism (white power)... But to say 32% of the USA are racist might be a bit extreme. I am sure there are non-racists voting for him (I know right now his campaign is collapsing mind you)

What do the more level headed Leavers want with a free UK?

[RedKing]

Something like 70% of leave voters didn't expect to win, iirc. Basically no UK politician wanted a leave results. Intent regarding an actual leave was never really there, at all. This was basically political grandstanding that went right in the worst way possible for everyone indulging in it.

So why campaign for Leave? Is it for some future election?

Ask yourself why certain US Congresscritters agitated for a debt default. Or a government shutdown.

Because it gives them a wonderfully simplistic answer to a complex problem, that they can go back and insist to their constituents would have solved all their problems, if only the nasty <fill in opposition here> hadn't stopped them, but don't you worry! I'm going to keep fighting for YOU, the little guy! Just keep re-electing me...

The problem is that even the simplistic aren't rubes. In the US, the grassroots Republicans got tired of this dog-and-pony show and started drafting their own to run, and those True Believers genuinely are crazy enough to want what the Republicans were espousing.

Conservatives in the UK used Brexit as a gimmick to rile votes their way, but when they sensed people were wising up that they were never going to pull the trigger, Cameron tried to bluff his way out of trouble with the referendum. Farage and others fired up the Leave camp a bit more than Cameron wanted, and the populace called Cameron's bluff.

I'd wager a lot of the Tories who campaigned for Leave are in the same mindset as Republicans who have pounded the drum for years on immigration and gun control and same-sex marriage and Obamacare, and now are shocked, SHOCKED that Donald Trump is the nominee.

[Frumple]

What do the more level headed Leavers want with a free UK?

Less EU interference, more domestic controls and whatnot. Stuff like that, mostly boiled down to greater independence. Whether or not they were actually aware of how much independence the UK already had and what their government was doing with it... *shrugs*

Was also some belief that the UK could manage to navigate into a better economic situation without being directly attached to the EU, I think? It's... probably best not to think too hard on that one.

[Neonivek]

Less EU interference, more domestic controls and whatnot. Stuff like that, mostly boiled down to greater independence. Whether or not they were actually aware of how much independence the UK actually had and what their government was doing with it... *shrugs*

But... they didn't disagree with anything the EU was doing and what they did want to do the UK could have done anyhow (speaking of the moderates here)

[Frumple]

... yeah, more or less. To a fair extent, anyway. Least as far as I've been able to tell. Lot of this has been more than a little confusing. Y'see some leave campaign point or another and then a few minutes of trying to learn more later you find out the UK could already do it without leave the EU, or leave voters and whatnot speaking about what they wanted to happen that... was already in their government's power to enact.

I guess there was also a fair chunk that was doing the whole protest vote song and dance, from what I've picked up, too. They didn't really want to leave but they did want to register displeasure with how things have been being done to date. S'just, well. Things happened :V

[Neonivek]

I guess also they didn't like their money going to more needy countries.

Which is a common complaint for everyone (Quebec for example has complained that its tax dollars don't always go back to Quebec)

[RedKing]

... yeah, more or less. To a fair extent, anyway. Least as far as I've been able to tell. Lot of this has been more than a little confusing. Y'see some leave campaign point or another and then a few minutes of trying to learn more later you find out the UK could already do it without leave the EU, or leave voters and whatnot speaking about what they wanted to happen that... was already in their government's power to enact.

I guess there was also a fair chunk that was doing the whole protest vote song and dance, from what I've picked up, too. They didn't really want to leave but they did want to register displeasure with how things have been being done to date. S'just, well. Things happened :V

Like setting a tire fire, and then burning down your house by mistake?

[mainiac]

There were many reasons to take the Tories over Labour in 2010.

Noticeably missing from that apology for the Lib-Dem sellout:
-The word austerity
-The word recession

So lets just talk about everything but the elephant in the room and then wonder why were are considered a joke.  The word budget comes up exactly once:

Relying on Jeremy Corbyn and his mates to support every Budget and every public spending cut?

Wow.  It's almost like you had bargaining power to block these cuts.

[Frumple]

Like setting a tire fire, and then burning down your house by mistake?

Yeah, more or less.

And yeah, @Neo, the money going out was apparently a pretty major drumming point. S'just, y'know. There was money going in, too, and far as I know even though that basic UK->EU->UK transfer was a net loss (though it was benefiting a number of leave voting areas pretty heavily, (morbidly) amusingly enough), the knock on effects (ease of trade, et al, mostly) were bringing in several times more than was going out. By all even vaguely coherent accounts I've seen the UK was profiting pretty substantially off the EU membership. Not always in ways that a lot of the UK's populace saw (which was a big issue with the less urban voters, I do believe), but... yeah.