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[Sheb]

Hmm yeah, also the BBC is hardly friendly with Maduro, and if you read their article on the matter, the opposition there actually come off as a bunch of ranting loonies. They're all about hyperbole and hysteria dialed up to 11 no matter what the other guys say or do:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39775092

Does it? Reading that article, it looks like they're reasonable and Maduro is out to do a power grab.

[Reelya]

If they think the president has too many powers, and there aren't enough constitutional protections against that, then rather than ousting one president and just putting another in, they should fully back something like the constituent assembly which would be able to tighten the legal restrictions on what the president can do. After all, the constituent assembly is binding on the president.

[Sheb]

Except it isn't clear how that constituent assembly is going to be set up, apart that it's not going to be directly elected.

[sluissa]

Remember Turkey just adjusted their constitution to make way for a dictator president. Venezuela copying them maybe?

[Reelya]

Well looking at Turkey's referendum, it basically shifted from a westminster-style parliament more to a US-style presidency. That - by itself - doesn't really mean he's a dictator.

If you look at some of the changes in turkey they weren't all clearly just pushing Erdogan's power:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitutional_referendum,_2017#Constitutional_amendments

-  The number of seats in the Parliament is raised from 550 to 600.

- Parliamentary terms are extended from four to five years. Parliamentary and presidential elections will be held on the same day every five years, with presidential elections going to a run-off if no candidate wins a simple majority in the first round.

- The age requirement to stand as a candidate in an election to be lowered from 25 to 18, while the condition of having to complete compulsory military service is to be removed. Individuals with relations to the military would be ineligible to run for election.

- The President's ability to declare state of emergency is now subject to parliamentary approval to take effect. The Parliament can extend, remove or shorten it. States of emergency can be extended for up to four months at a time except during war, where no such limitation will be required. Every presidential decree issues during a state of emergency will need an approval of Parliament.

- The acts of the President are now subject to judicial review.

- The President used to appoint one Justice from High Military Court of Appeals, and one from the High Military Administrative Court. As military courts would be abolished, the number of Justices in the Constitutional Court would be reduced to 15 from 17. Consequently, presidential appointees would be reduced to 12 from 14, while the Parliament would continue to appoint three.

- To overcome a presidential veto, the Parliament needs to adopt the same bill with an absolute majority (301).

- Military courts are abolished unless they are erected to investigate actions of soldiers under conditions of war.

-     The President becomes both the head of state and head of government, with the power to appoint and sack ministers and Vice President. The president can issue decrees about executive. If legislation makes a law about the same topic that President issued an executive order, decree will become invalid and parliamentary law become valid.

Those are some of the relevant ones, they're all pretty tame stuff compared to e.g. American presidential powers.

[TempAcc]

Surely a new constitution while maduro and all of his cronies are in power (including the supreme court) will result in a constitution that truly reflects the will of the people, you know, those millions protesting for days now, including those who died?

Is this the fanfiction thread? Is maduro going to declare his love for his sempai next and cause eternal world peace while brandishing a katana at super robots?

[Teneb]

Is this the fanfiction thread? Is maduro going to declare his love for his sempai next and cause eternal world peace while brandishing a katana at super robots?

Chavez-senpai is dead.

[Antioch]

Well looking at Turkey's referendum, it basically shifted from a westminster-style parliament more to a US-style presidency. That - by itself - doesn't really mean he's a dictator.

If you look at some of the changes in turkey they weren't all clearly just pushing Erdogan's power:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitutional_referendum,_2017#Constitutional_amendments

-  The number of seats in the Parliament is raised from 550 to 600.

- Parliamentary terms are extended from four to five years. Parliamentary and presidential elections will be held on the same day every five years, with presidential elections going to a run-off if no candidate wins a simple majority in the first round.

- The age requirement to stand as a candidate in an election to be lowered from 25 to 18, while the condition of having to complete compulsory military service is to be removed. Individuals with relations to the military would be ineligible to run for election.

- The President's ability to declare state of emergency is now subject to parliamentary approval to take effect. The Parliament can extend, remove or shorten it. States of emergency can be extended for up to four months at a time except during war, where no such limitation will be required. Every presidential decree issues during a state of emergency will need an approval of Parliament.

- The acts of the President are now subject to judicial review.

- The President used to appoint one Justice from High Military Court of Appeals, and one from the High Military Administrative Court. As military courts would be abolished, the number of Justices in the Constitutional Court would be reduced to 15 from 17. Consequently, presidential appointees would be reduced to 12 from 14, while the Parliament would continue to appoint three.

- To overcome a presidential veto, the Parliament needs to adopt the same bill with an absolute majority (301).

- Military courts are abolished unless they are erected to investigate actions of soldiers under conditions of war.

-     The President becomes both the head of state and head of government, with the power to appoint and sack ministers and Vice President. The president can issue decrees about executive. If legislation makes a law about the same topic that President issued an executive order, decree will become invalid and parliamentary law become valid.

Those are some of the relevant ones, they're all pretty tame stuff compared to e.g. American presidential powers.

Now place this in the context of a country where more than 66 newspapers got closed down by the government. The government has lifted the immunity of parliament to persecute the opposition. Hundreds of people get arrested for "insulting the president". More than 66 newspapers and 83 other media outlets have been shut down. And over 100,000 judges, policemen, and academics got sacked or detained, because Erdogan has just declared the opposition a terrorist organization.

The sacking of judges in particular means there is simply no separation of power anymore in Turkey. The juridical system has become an extension of the government.

In the meantime Erdogan makes Gulen into a huge enemy figure like Trotsky was to Stalin, while failing to give the world any form of evidence that the man had anything to do with the coup. Also take in mind that these purges were happening before the coup anyway.

[redwallzyl]

lots of fighting going on apparently.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/05/527049726/riven-by-fire-and-fiery-rhetoric-venezuela-decides-its-future-in-the-streets

I find it really interesting how the "protesters" basically look like what an ancient unprofessional army would have looked like, minus the outfits and with a distinct lack of swords and spears, and the riot cops looking like the roman legions.

[smjjames]

And apparently, Maduro dances while Caracas burns. That is one guy who doesn't give a damn about his public image or opinion.

The whole Rome mirror thing is wierd.

[Reelya]

I'm worried about Venezuela no matter which way this goes. There aren't any moderates, you have the opposition who have flirted with outright fascism when they had their shot at power, and are tied in with groups like the colombian paramilitaries, and you have Maduro's bunch who are basically incompetent and have terrible PR.

What I'm guessing will happen now is that Maduro will be toppled from power and a far-right coalition will take power, then there will be a massive escalation of violence and state oppression against groups such as trade unions and worker's organizations, which the mainstream media will turn a blind eye to.

Both sides have similar shortcomings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt#Carmona.27s_interim_presidency

Carmona then issued a decree, which came to be known as the Carmona Decree, dissolving the National Assembly and Supreme Court that were filled with Chávez supporters, and voiding the 1999 Constitution. The decree declared that new elections for a "National Legislative Power" would take place no later than December 2002, and that this would draft a general reform of the 1999 constitution; new "general national elections" would take place within a year of the decree's declaration. The decree also suspended the Attorney General, Controller General, state governors and all mayors elected during Chávez's administration. He also suspended the power of other branches of government and dismissed Chávez appointees while forming a new ouncil, most of whose 25 members were Chávez opponents. As one academic and Chavez supporter, Barry Cannon, later put it, "all institutions were abolished leaving the country effectively without the rule of law."

What the opposition actually did last time they had a shot at power heavily resembles what they accuse Maduro of doing. Capriles, the current opposition forerunner for the next president was a supporter of this at the time (he was a mayor of an area where the Cuban Embassy was located and he reportedly physically joined in on attacks on the embassy). So, in other words a change of government isn't going to fix jack shit, since they're all as bad as each other.

[smjjames]

Any idea of what would fix Venezuelas situation? Short of an all out civil war. Though you did say that there aren't any moderates left, or at least those that want to be in politics.

[Reelya]

Civil war is actually looking likely. For example, one of the "protest-related" deaths was actually because armed opposition supporters stormed a left-wing commune with guns. So I'd be worried that many groups associated with the socialist side of things would be targeted for elimination if there was a sudden change of power. This would include communes, collectives, grass-roots media outlets, unions, and possibly attacks on those free clinics and their operators.

And before being accused of hyping things up, during 2013 right-wing protestors attacked low-cost supermarkets, clinics and journalists.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/04/20134177162851301.html

Patients react angrily as opposition is blamed for attacking Cuban doctors, journalists and supermarkets.
...
Angry mobs burned clinics in Valencia and other cities on Monday night and early Tuesday, destroying property and harassing doctors during a melee of political violence that left seven people dead and dozens injured.

Demonstrators also vandalised offices of the governing Socialist Party, the home of Tibisay Lucena, head of Venezuela's election authority and other institutions connected to the state.

The violence follows Sunday's tight presidential election when Socialist Party candidate Nicolas Maduro beat opposition challenger Henrique Capriles by a margin of about 1.5 percent, or less than 300,000 votes.

And there are stories circulating about other opposition-related violence in the current time period
https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13066
Opposition supporters attacked a maternity hospital. The media source is pro-venezuela, but Unicef also issued an official statement condemning the attack:
https://www.unicef.org/venezuela/spanish/media_36025.html
The maternity hospital was probably targeted because it was named after Hugo Chavez.

I mean this is a clear sign that the media we're getting is partisan. If the left-wing side was burning down hospitals, it would be front page news.

[Sergarr]

In other news, Maduro has made a political speech. To cows. This should tell you all you need to choose the right, sane side in Venezuela.

[Reelya]

Seriously you're like a walking example of Poe's law. Next you'll be telling us Hitler was all well and good because he put paid to the German Communist Party.

BTW the 2015 Amnesty bill is basically a laundry-list of every illegal action taken by the opposition from 1999-2015. It provides a get of out jail free card for any violent political action taken by their side during the period:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-francisco-dominguez/venezuelas-right-wing-con_b_9401644.html

Hey they even included "using minors to commit crimes" as being under Amnesty, if the goal was to overthrow the elected government. So they have at least some incidents of child soldiers used on their side that they felt the need to cover in a blanket get-out-of-jail-free card.