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[Corsair]

Zoomed out resource gathering for waitlisters would indeed be neat.  Even turning it into a mini group strategy game might be interesting, if it wouldn't be too much of a burden.

Seconded

[TheBiggerFish]

PTW.

[Aigre Excalibur]

Zoomed out resource gathering for waitlisters would indeed be neat.  Even turning it into a mini group strategy game might be interesting, if it wouldn't be too much of a burden.

Seconded

I like this idea.

[Egan_BW]

needs more airships imo

[Moopli]

Step one prompts:
- oroboropolis was created for a purpose long ago, long since forgotten by the denizens and likely even the city itself
- oroboropolis stitches together the memories of absorbed souls as a base for its design work. Perhaps it was intended to use intentions instead of simply memories or thoughts, but it was either misdesigned or has since become corrupted. This idea doesn't just justify my last idea, but gives you an opening to create loads of differently-styled parts of the world, and an opening for some sort of magic that involves shaping parts of the city to your will, taming it, as it were (which would most likely also corrupt you, as the city starts using you as a design base in addition to as a source of ideas)
- oroboropolis was definitely first created somewhere, but it has an ability to create large spaces that are bigger on the inside, which means that we might think we've left the city only to still be inside it, and thus it might be really hard to realize if we have actually found the place where the original city was made (especially because it would have spread into there and corrupted parts of that world too).
- this I guess is a prerequisite for all the above ideas, but oroboropolis uses reality-warping powers to expand itself, but it's constrained in that the reality-warping has to make local sense, since the original design presumably intended it for the use of creatures that are generally not comfortable with warped reality. The constraints may loosen in stressful cases.

[Kedly]

Oro could just be a creature whom has resources that have massive boons (origin tech level value) to society, but can only be found/harvested in Oro.

[NJW2000]

Perhaps the city is self constructing, and self moving, like in Iron Council (Mieville). There could even be groups involved in his that move about the city (as in Aldiss' Non-Stop).

PTW mainly.

Libraries. Construction?

[Aigre Excalibur]

If Ramses were there, he'd grab a flamethrower and literally burn the city alive... you know just for the hang of it.

[Caellath]

The important part is, of course, loot. Since I didn't see it - thought I might've just missed it - I have to ask: would there be randomly-generated loot, maybe relics from former generations of explorers or even items cursed or blessed with powers from entities (which might also be randomly-generated)? Even if the chance of finding something really useful happens to be low... Well, people still buy lottery tickets.

[kj1225]

So, first question, did you take the inspiration for the whole 'you're going to die eventually unless you get an ending' from Nuclear Throne?

Second, which is related to the first, I don't really like the 'eventually you can't keep using your character' I understand that it's to avoid the problem of vets from ER, but shouldn't there be a better way instead of punishing players for being able to do bigger and better things?

[Whisperling]

Second, which is related to the first, I don't really like the 'eventually you can't keep using your character' I understand that it's to avoid the problem of vets from ER, but shouldn't there be a better way instead of punishing players for being able to do bigger and better things?

Maybe there could be a way to purge corruption via the sacrifice of loot/other valuable stuff? That would let people keep their characters at the expense of progression if they so chose.

[Empiricist]

I personally prefer having it irreversible and just be an inevitable spiral into becoming a muderbeast. Reminds me of Don't Rest Your Head.
Wait how does the transformation work exactly? Do you just turn into a twisted version of your former self? Or does the City just assimilate you, until all that remains is a grand memorial for which you are the statue, occasionally rising up to brutally murder anyone who dare approach it?

[NJW2000]

Hopefully something like Bloodborne's cleric beasts: a twisted and massive version, with huge weapons and their own boss arena or area.

Competition to create the most powerful boss former PC would be a healthy dynamique in a game like ORO.

[Empiricist]

Competition to create the most powerful boss former PC would be a healthy dynamique in a game like ORO.

Followed by the formation of a Hunter of Hunters-style subgroup

[Radio Controlled]

For starters PW, here's the stuff that we came up with in tinker thread before (quoting here to bring everything in one place).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One thing you could do is limit the ability to tinker/craft to the relevant skill of a character.

For example, any person could propose putting together items A, B and C, and the gm (or co-gm tinkermaster) could say if it has any chance to work at all. But to see if it leads to a really workable product or find out unforeseen problems, one would have to actually roll to make it for the first time, and the skill level could both/either influence the chance of making it correctly or influence the difficulty level a char can work at (eg level 1 handiwork means you're limited to using 3 different items/resources at once when crafting, but level 3 handi means you could use up to 7 different things).

I wouldn't make it so that every item needs to be rolled for every time though, but make it so that when you crafted it successfully for the first time, it can then be bought from npc 'shops' standard. Whoever originally invented it would get a discount to buying it, or could still just make it themself somewhat cheaper than buying it. And perhaps we can make it so npc shops have a certain level, and said level is determined by the level of development of whatever base/outpost you are at, or perhaps limited by the type of resources that are available in the vicinity.

Basically, make it so tinker oriented chars need to have the skills to back it up (not like now where a dolt with -2 mind and -2 gen knowledge and -2 aux and handi could tinker up thermonuclear laser guided dongs), but anyone can still think about and ask about possible designs.

I like most of Radio's suggestions, but I'm unsure if you should be able to just mass-produce something after making it only once.  Maybe you could get a bonus, but if it were sheer luck you succeeded the first ttime, that shouldn't mean you always do perfectly in the future.

As for shopkeepers, I don't think they should sell completed items unless those items have gotten really popular and common.   That would make the whole system essentially identical to our current tinker system, just with the caveat that it's parts based rather than infinite-resources based.  Instead, at most there should be NPCs with handi skill, who you can pay if you don't want to risk making something with your own -2 handi.  Maybe make them charge more based on how high their handi skill is.

Of course, if you want things to be less safe you could say there's no NPCs, and that players are the only ones who can craft.  Might make sense if some parts are demonic, and thus can corrupt people if mishandled.


As for systems I like... well, Fallout 4's system is pretty good, from what I've seen.  Different gun parts which can be assembled into a larger whole.  The system probably isn't granular enough for that.  A more gamey system is the type where various parts have specific alignments; say, you can get a gun barrel, but it might be aligned to holy or unholy or fire or insanity.  Then, if you mix parts from different alignments your gun might be degraded or unstable or something, but if you mix parts from one alignment, it gets a powerful effect from that.  Do you assemble this gun right now, using both holy and unholy parts, because those are all you have and you need the gun now?  Or do you wait until you can get holy versions of the unholy parts, making your gun entirely holy and granting it a unique effect?

Keeping most of the crafting player based could be a good idea, though it might also lead to the world feeling a bit 'smaller' if player chars are the only ones ever doing anything.

I do like the idea of the holyness, but unsure if there should be types beyond holy and unholy/corrupt. Maybe just have items have a holyness score, the higher the better (and rarer). And maybe have it so items become more corrupt over time (like a degrading mechanism for guns in some games). But maybe make it so items can be 'cleansed' by something (eg holy water) to bring them back to their original holyness level.

Also/alternatively make it so demonic items are more powerful, but increase the 'attention' the city and its inhabitants give you, and/or increase the chance for corruption of the wielder.

I agree pretty much completely with the above post.  Having more than two alignments allows for more of a collection game, but just holy vs. occult would probably be more fun.  I was really just spitballing, anyway.

I do think holy shouldn't be intrinsically better than occult--rather, it should be safer, but have less power to compensate.  Or perhaps holy items could only be used by pure characters--who would generally be newbies--while occult items are equal, but can be used by anyone AND advance their user's corruption.  That would work well with our balancing system, no?

Unholy's power could be somewhat based on what your current "faith" is at. The lower it is, the more damage it could inflict.

And do not let players tinker anything that they aren't going to use by themselves. Otherwise we end up in our latest state of tinker where Armory is full of player made items that nobody has ever used or purchased. The "get royalties" idea gave tinkerers entirely wrong kind of incentive. Make them pay for parts.

One thing that could be interesting would be (like in dark souls, kinda) temporary effect you could add to a weapon, like 'oil of +2 fire damage' that only last for a single battle/x turns. You could upgrade these oils or combine them for special effects, but they're a limited resource, so you'd have to make hard decisions about when to use them or whether or not to combine them, and gives a constant feeling of scarcity and being pressured. And make it take time to combine them  and apply them (and maybe certain rolls?), so you'd have to plan for encounters, and anticipating badly can be disastrous.

For people who hate these kind of decisions, maybe make it also possible to just straight up upgrade your weapons, but make that be much less cost effective (in a power per credit way) so again it comes down to making meaningful choices.

Yeah, depending on how things work with npc's, we'd have to think long and hard how to handle how to handle that side of tinkering. If we indeed go with something not being mass produced, but instead having to pay an npc to build it for you if you can't do it yourself (being less money efficient) you could still give the inventor some sort of bonus to building it (though perhaps only for a limited  time?). If we go with the holyness level thing, perhaps the original inventor grants a little holyness bonus to anything he makes that he himself invented.


Also, whatever the currency ends up being, maybe make it so the smallest amount of money is worth much less than 1 token currently is (like, make standard mission pay something like 50 to 500 credits). This allows more granularity and makes it easier to pay other players for small favors (should stimulate inter-player economy), and leaves more room for haggling.

Yeah, it's easier to buy a single use weapon augment for the price it is worth instead of having to buy them in packs, like we do with grenades or battlestims in ER. It would probably mean seeing more use of those less powerful items and less items being given away for free.

And prices/recipes don't have to be set in stone. It's a magical world. The rules of reality can change. Or the market conditions can change. Or new design flaws might appear or technological advancements might be made.

I've always hated one-use temporary buff items.  Whenever they appear, I always end up hoarding them and never, ever using them. Alternatively, I just end up selling them.  Others might like them though, I guess.

I don't think you should be able to upgrade stuff after it's been made, unless upgading is really rare or difficult.  I like the concept of having to search for parts to make a new, better weapon, or having to rely on luck to find something awesome.  Plus, if it's easy for anyone to upgrade their equipment, it devalues the excitement when someone finds a really awesome +4 vorpal revolver of lightning.

I like the suggestion of letting the original designer being able to craft their own designs slightly better than others.  I'm somewhat biased here, though, because I want to play a crafting-focused character who stays inside the city and tries to run a business.  For that reason, I'd also like NPC crafters to have a price that one can undercut, so there's a good reason for players to do business between each other rather than only with NPCs.

I also very highly support more granular currency, pretty much for the same reasons Radio listed, but also because it makes it easier to only slightly undercut NPCs.

Does anyone else have suggestions for an alternate crafting system, beyond the parts and alignments?  Are there any games which did things differently than usual, and it worked well?  Could we steal their system?

Oh yeah, I'm all too aware of the 'too awesome to use' syndrome, but I kinda think it can be a good gameplay mechanic. If you have to brood and think and doubt over when to use that one item you have, you are actively engaged with the world and making hard, meaningful choices that have an impact. And then as long as there is no 'obviously superior solution', different players can make different choices that match their playstyle (for example, you could choose to use your resources on things other than one use items, but at the risk of not having that extra bit of oomph when you really need it).

I kinda like the idea, gives an alternative to the one time things while giving the idea of progression beyond just levels. Doesn't mean it has to be cheap or the most cost effective, but it allows things like people getting attached to a certain piece of kit they then keep upgrading to keep it somewhat on par with other char's new fancy toys, even though there might be a better option available. Or maybe make it so you can 'upgrade' things to be different instead of just more powerful/plain better to match a playstyle (eg mod rifle to get higher damage but lower range, mod sword to be lighter for small dex bonus but damage penalty).

My opinion probably isn't the best on this particular subject, but I think one-use temporary buffs shouldn't have a long application time if you're trying to make them useful.  Not being able to apply them in battle means you're risking wasting the buff entirely any time you use it--maybe that monster is weaker than it looks, or you end up being able to get through a challenge without engaging anything.  Having a use waste multiple turns in combat means whatever you want to kill might destroy your team before you've finished the buff, or it might turn on you before you're ready.  It adds risk to an already risky item.

I still dislike being able to give flat upgrades to things, because it makes equipment less interesting.  I do like mere modifications, though.  Being able to optimize for one role at the loss of other roles is a very good mechanic, IMO.

-I'd like it if there was some strategy in it. So, for example, we'd get a map of the city (vague, incomplete and incorrect at places of course) and be allowed to plan ourselves what regions to tackle first, what resources to go for, etc.
-for combat, one thing you could do is that people, when monsters are encountered, describe the kind of tactics they'd use, and then you run combat (multiple rounds) until something big happens (eg extra monsters appear from the walls) or you think they might have reason to change tactics (eg somebody got wounded bad).