Topic: An explanation of the races ethics (Read 2677 times)

Orbotosh · « **on:** March 06, 2016, 07:24:13 pm »

Dwarves

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dwarves have the most familiar ethics, they are the most in tune with what we consider "moral". They have no problem with eating any nonsapient life, believe that there is no possible justification for torture or cannibalism and, most interestingly, appear to consider making trophies out of sapients to be barbaric rather than evil.

Elves

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Elf morality seems to be based around what's "natural". This leads to an alien yet semilogical code of honor. They appear to consider themselves to be some form of predator, seeing the eating of what they kill as completely normal even if it's sapient. Another "evil" natural behavior they view as okay is the killing of nonmembers. They prefer social stigma and even torture as a form of punishment in place of execution and imprisonment. They despise "unnatural" behavior like making trophies out of kills, destroying trees, slavery and torturing for the sake of torture.

Humans

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Humans have a more "draconian" system of morality where slavery, "enhanced interrogation" and making trophies out of your enemies is acceptable. A lot like older real world civilizations.

Goblins

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Goblins have the weakest ethics of them all, almost everything that isn't acceptable is a matter of opinion. An exception to this is treason, which they regard as the only sin. Although I suspect that's more because the "men" in charge will get angry than anything else.

Kobolds

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kobold ethics are a product of their unfortunate situation. The only thing they can count on is their tribe, kill another within it and you're no longer part of it and don't even think of going against it. They see the use of lethal force against other races as a necessity, which is justified considering their vocal handicap and they lack a concept of ownership. Interestingly, they find cannibalism and trophy making disgusting.

darkflagrance · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2016, 09:26:19 pm »

You should also include an explanation of their cultural values in your analysis of their ethics.

For example, goblin values:

Code: [Select]

	[VALUE:LAW:-50]
	[VALUE:LOYALTY:-30]
	[VALUE:FAMILY:0]
	[VALUE:FRIENDSHIP:-15]
	[VALUE:POWER:50]
	[VALUE:TRUTH:-50]
	[VALUE:CUNNING:15]
	[VALUE:ELOQUENCE:-30]
	[VALUE:FAIRNESS:-50]
	[VALUE:DECORUM:-15]
	[VALUE:TRADITION:-15]
	[VALUE:ARTWORK:0]
	[VALUE:COOPERATION:-15]
	[VALUE:INDEPENDENCE:15]
	[VALUE:STOICISM:0]
	[VALUE:KNOWLEDGE:-15]
	[VALUE:INTROSPECTION:-30]
	[VALUE:SELF_CONTROL:-50]
	[VALUE:TRANQUILITY:-15]
	[VALUE:HARMONY:-30]
	[VALUE:MERRIMENT:0]
	[VALUE:CRAFTSMANSHIP:0]
	[VALUE:MARTIAL_PROWESS:15]
	[VALUE:SKILL:0]
	[VALUE:HARD_WORK:-15]
	[VALUE:SACRIFICE:-50]
	[VALUE:COMPETITION:0]
	[VALUE:PERSEVERANCE:-15]
	[VALUE:LEISURE_TIME:0]
	[VALUE:COMMERCE:0]
	[VALUE:ROMANCE:0]
	[VALUE:NATURE:-30]
	[VALUE:PEACE:-15]

Goblins love power and cunning, and hate truth and sacrificing themselves for others. They hold war to be a supreme ideal, and think effort spent in its pursuit is well-used, etc.

Diamond · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2016, 06:17:10 am »

Now, you two, explain how is willingness to go to war / hostility is calculated. Especially how much minus in ethics is required to get that red line, like default goblins have with dwarves (unless that is just hardcoded).
I got a self made minimod with 4 goblin races, that are just renamed copies of the normal ones for now with different siege seasons, how do I make them fight each other?

Etc_Guy · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2016, 08:09:04 am »

Quote from: darkflagrance on March 06, 2016, 09:26:19 pm

Goblins love power and cunning, and hate truth and sacrificing themselves for others. They hold war to be a supreme ideal, and think effort spent in its pursuit is well-used, etc.

That sounds almost identical to fascist and red-fascist nations. Throwing hundreds of thousands of their worthless soldiers at their enemies, which is anyone but themselves, away without thinking twice even if it's a loss cause? (Like your fort.) Go ahead. Use any means, and I mean any! To keep someone from spreading the ugly truth from getting out that the head hancho might not like. (Just don't say anthing about it.)

And eternal war IS a/the real fascist ideal, making complete genocide the easiest way to destroy a fascist nation exclusively by force.

Strangely, despite goblins acting very similarly to fascist they are the least xenophobic and hypocritical of the races. (

I know, impossible to be a fascist without being those two.) They kidnap children and raise them without prejudice. Any non-goblins immigrants (humans, dwarfs, elves, animal-men,) can become citizens easily. (Don't know how often this happens) Trolls, the goblins' main best buds, are not treated like 3rd-class citizens for being different and no one else in goblin society is treated abusively who is below the king like every other race. As for hypocritical, they don't mind being called evil at all, it's the goblins' description, regardless if they aren't hostile.

LMeire · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2016, 09:01:34 am »

Quote from: Etc_Guy on March 07, 2016, 08:09:04 am

...

Strangely, despite goblins acting very similarly to fascist they are the least xenophobic and hypocritical of the races. ( I know, impossible to be a fascist without being those two.)...

Not that I'm advocating it, but Fascism is actually when the State owns the means of production (including the workforce), xenophobia/racism is more of a cultural thing than a political/economic one. I'd say the goblins are more or less anarchists at heart but easily brought together under a sufficiently powerful despot through fear.

Untrustedlife · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2016, 06:08:26 pm »

Quote from: LMeire on March 07, 2016, 09:01:34 am

Quote from: Etc_Guy on March 07, 2016, 08:09:04 am
...

Strangely, despite goblins acting very similarly to fascist they are the least xenophobic and hypocritical of the races. ( I know, impossible to be a fascist without being those two.)...

Not that I'm advocating it, but Fascism is actually when the State owns the means of production (including the workforce), xenophobia/racism is more of a cultural thing than a political/economic one. I'd say the goblins are more or less anarchists at heart but easily brought together under a sufficiently powerful despot through fear.

I think you have communism confused with fascism my friend, fascism is the merging of state and corporate power, Usually with an emphasis on being "pure:.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fascism&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS573US573&oq=fascism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1231j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Communism is when the state owns the means of production, you can have a fascistic nation with capitalism (nazi germany was capitalistic (To "Aryans") ) , You however cannot have capitalism with communism.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Fascism

Etc_Guy · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2016, 09:53:17 pm »

Quote from: Untrustedlife on March 07, 2016, 06:08:26 pm

Quote from: LMeire on March 07, 2016, 09:01:34 am
Quote from: Etc_Guy on March 07, 2016, 08:09:04 am
...

Strangely, despite goblins acting very similarly to fascist they are the least xenophobic and hypocritical of the races. ( I know, impossible to be a fascist without being those two.)...

Not that I'm advocating it, but Fascism is actually when the State owns the means of production (including the workforce), xenophobia/racism is more of a cultural thing than a political/economic one. I'd say the goblins are more or less anarchists at heart but easily brought together under a sufficiently powerful despot through fear.

I think you have communism confused with fascism my friend, fascism is the merging of state and corporate power, Usually with an emphasis on being "pure:.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fascism&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS573US573&oq=fascism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1231j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Communism is when the state owns the means of production, you can have a fascistic nation with capitalism (nazi germany was capitalistic (To "Aryans") ) , You however cannot have capitalism with communism.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Fascism

I did it on purpose. I've studied past and present the behavior of communist corporate dictatorships like stalinist Soviet Union an China, and they act identical to fascist dictators. Marx's actual manifesto I know about and doesn't promote abusive kings taking over the land and polluting it for their selfish gain, because that was also who the kaiser of 1890s Germany was.

Anyway, back to race ethic Orbotosh

Untrustedlife · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2016, 10:02:05 pm »

Quote from: Etc_Guy on March 07, 2016, 09:53:17 pm

Quote from: Untrustedlife on March 07, 2016, 06:08:26 pm
Quote from: LMeire on March 07, 2016, 09:01:34 am
Quote from: Etc_Guy on March 07, 2016, 08:09:04 am
...

Strangely, despite goblins acting very similarly to fascist they are the least xenophobic and hypocritical of the races. ( I know, impossible to be a fascist without being those two.)...

Not that I'm advocating it, but Fascism is actually when the State owns the means of production (including the workforce), xenophobia/racism is more of a cultural thing than a political/economic one. I'd say the goblins are more or less anarchists at heart but easily brought together under a sufficiently powerful despot through fear.

I think you have communism confused with fascism my friend, fascism is the merging of state and corporate power, Usually with an emphasis on being "pure:.
https://www.google.com/search?q=fascism&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS573US573&oq=fascism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1231j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Communism is when the state owns the means of production, you can have a fascistic nation with capitalism (nazi germany was capitalistic (To "Aryans") ) , You however cannot have capitalism with communism.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Fascism

I did it on purpose. I've studied past and present the behavior of communist corporate dictatorships like stalinist Soviet Union an China, and they act identical to fascist dictators. Marx's actual manifesto I know about and doesn't promote abusive kings taking over the land and polluting it for their selfish gain, because that was also who the kaiser of 1890s Germany was.

Anyway, back to race ethic Orbotosh

Why would you want to do that?
Also, why should I believe you when the definitions don't fit how you describe them. One can claim anything, its much harder to provide evidence.
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-differences-between-communism-and-fascism-mostly-semantic
Though I suppose it is true that the communism and fascism that the world has experienced are quite literally "autocracy" with right/left leaning social idealism.
Which means one is "oh we like equality" and the other is "Oh, we like purity" but we are both autocracies. And both are populist movements that place the blame on someone else, eg, on other racial/religious groups (fascism) or other social classes (Communism)
There are differences though, especially in how they come about, and actions they took at home and I am sure you are aware of that.

(edit, fixed typo, added link)

I am personally very libertarian (I hate big government in general) , and I can see the goblins as anarchists.

But sure, lets get back to racial ethics.

Untrustedlife · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2016, 10:20:39 pm »

It is extremely interesting looking at the ethics of the races of dwarf fortress, and seeing what they result in, one interesting thing about the goblins is that they tolerate difference more then other groups, though they are depicted as the most evil. The reasoning is obviously because of their practice of kidnapping, but it is very interesting.

Also, murder is commonplace in goblin society, why? well no reason really they are just okay with murder so they kill people.

noirscape · « **Reply #9 on:** March 08, 2016, 07:08:34 am »

I think that the 'Treason unthinkable part' for Goblins prevents the clowns that control them getting removed from their position.

Deus Asmoth · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2016, 03:05:14 pm »

Quote from: Diamond on March 07, 2016, 06:17:10 am

Now, you two, explain how is willingness to go to war / hostility is calculated. Especially how much minus in ethics is required to get that red line, like default goblins have with dwarves (unless that is just hardcoded).
I got a self made minimod with 4 goblin races, that are just renamed copies of the normal ones for now with different siege seasons, how do I make them fight each other?

Goblins and dwarves are automatically at war because of the babysnatcher tag IIRC. Any civilisation with the babysnatcher tag in their ethics will automatically be hostile towards any civ without it and vice versa.

thatkid · « **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2016, 10:12:32 pm »

Quote from: Deus Asmoth on March 08, 2016, 03:05:14 pm

Quote from: Diamond on March 07, 2016, 06:17:10 am
Now, you two, explain how is willingness to go to war / hostility is calculated. Especially how much minus in ethics is required to get that red line, like default goblins have with dwarves (unless that is just hardcoded).
I got a self made minimod with 4 goblin races, that are just renamed copies of the normal ones for now with different siege seasons, how do I make them fight each other?
Goblins and dwarves are automatically at war because of the babysnatcher tag IIRC. Any civilisation with the babysnatcher tag in their ethics will automatically be hostile towards any civ without it and vice versa.

They're hostile to one another, but they aren't at war. It's more of a cold dislike sort of deal where one side is snatching babies and the other is murdering baby snatchers and both are killing anyone who crosses their borders -- but they aren't raising armies just yet.

We don't currently understand how the decision to go to war is made, but it appears to be effected by a number of factors beyond simply Ethics, Values & Facets (two interacting tokens, one found in the Entity file the other in the Creature file). It, for instance, appears to take the specific personality (as it falls within the Value/Facet spectrum given to them by their creature type and entity) of a civilization's MILITARY_STRATEGY and/or MILITARY_GOALS nobles into account to at least some extent, but the exact extent of that and which personality traits in particular are looked at is unknown.

We do know how Ethics values line up against one another, and this information can be found on the relevant wiki page. We also know that BABYSNATCHER and ITEM_THIEF tags will cause hostility, which hypothetically should lead to outright war more frequently (if only because you'll be murdering their snatchers and thieves in fort mode, as they'll come without being at war) and anecdotal evidence says that it does.
Anecdotal evidence also seems to indicate that two races who are willing to inhabit the same site type and biome may go to war when they expand too close to one another but spheres of influence aren't in yet so as far as I know nobody is quite sure what causes that or if it's actually even happening and we aren't just thinking we see it happen because a civ (generally speaking) won't start a war with a civ they're too far away from.

Asking about the specifics of this in Future of the Fortress would probably be a good idea, I know a lot of modders would find it useful since for the most part even the most experienced of us are sort of in the dark on this and still resorting to relatively failproof but somewhat narratively boring stuff like super evil ethics + itemthief or whatever.

News:

Author Topic: An explanation of the races ethics (Read 2677 times)

Orbotosh

An explanation of the races ethics

darkflagrance

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Diamond

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Etc_Guy

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

LMeire

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Untrustedlife

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Etc_Guy

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Untrustedlife

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Untrustedlife

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

noirscape

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

Deus Asmoth

Re: An explanation of the races ethics

thatkid

Re: An explanation of the races ethics