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[pikachu17]

like the name says it would be nice if weakened zombies were an option in dfinit, and not a rule. are modded zombi also weak? if so that should also be an option. do the vanilla zombies have [CE_ADD:CAN_NOT_JUMP] or something like that? if not  and all zombies(modded or not) can't jump please change that and add the appropriate [CE_ADD]  and [CE_REMOVE] SO NOT ALL MODDED zombie are that weak

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Like the name says, it would be nice if weakened zombies were an option in d_init.tx, and not a rule. Are modded zombies also weak? If so, that should also be an option. Do the vanilla zombies have [CE_AD:CANNOT_JUMP] or something like that? If not, and all zombies, modded or not, cannot jump, please change that by adding the appropriate [CE_ADD] and [CE_REMOVE] so not all modded zombies are that weak.

Because some people can't read without capitalization and punctuation.

Comments regarding the suggestion:

This looks like a few suggestions:

1. Make "hard zombies" a d_init.txt option.

No. If it exists, it should be part of worldgen, not part of the init.txt's. Those are for meta-game stuff, like resolution; graphics pack stuff, like tree tiles; and caps and such that are kind of hacky and you might want to change during gameplay.

Anything that affects a creature directly should be in advanced worldgen.

2. Make it so that zombies can jump by default.

No. Just no. They're a mass of flesh that has been given the will to walk, or has had a hostile being's soul placed within it, or something like that. No way can something THAT CAN'T EVEN DODGE have the capacity to balance, bend its knees, and propel itself forward. I find it preposterous that they even climb. There is a very very very very long thread on whether zombies should be OP. Toady's verdict? Nerf now.

3. Add a creature variation for jumping capability.

I don't think this already exists, and so this is a good idea. Should also have a copied tag for climbing.

I'm pretty sure that zombies can be modded, though I could be wrong.

[Bumber]

Aren't husks/thralls tough zombies? You could probably just create a custom reaction to create one of those.

[IndigoFenix]

Zombies can be modded, but
a lot of zombie behavior is hard-coded and tied to the 'animate' action.  You cannot make zombies that are benign or intelligent, and presumably the 'no dodging or jumping' rule is the same.  You can make them more dangerous in other ways (make them faster, stronger, fire breathing, whatever).

Thralls are not zombies at all, but living creatures with a syndrome effect.  You can do whatever you want with them.

[GoblinCookie]

Zombies can be modded, but
a lot of zombie behavior is hard-coded and tied to the 'animate' action.  You cannot make zombies that are benign or intelligent, and presumably the 'no dodging or jumping' rule is the same.  You can make them more dangerous in other ways (make them faster, stronger, fire breathing, whatever).

Thralls are not zombies at all, but living creatures with a syndrome effect.  You can do whatever you want with them.

Are the nerfs not explicitly in the generated zombie syndrome for each world?  This would mean that any custom zombies would not have any handicaps at all. Undeath is actually a syndrome that afflicts creatures and gives them certain additional properties on top of those they already have.

[King_of_Baboons]

How about we give necromancers different types of zombies to summon according to their "necromancy skill"?

Maybe necromancers could start off weak as they still haven't mastered the skill to reanimate the dead so when they start creating their first zombies those will be like classic dumb and slow waking zombies.Then,as the necromancer improves his skill over time,the zombies he reanimates become more and more lethal,going from classic Homero zombies to the more faster Zombieland-like zombies to the more smarter Land of The Dead zombies(the ones that can actually use melee weapons but in a very poorly manner) and so on until the necro becomes so powerful(this after several in-game years,mind you) that he can summon full revenants(basically a zombie that can use armor,dodge,jump and use weapons just fine)

This system could be great for both modes.In fort mode the sieges of a necromancer would progressively get more dangerous as you build a successful fort over the years.That siege may take a while to get to you but when it does get your fort you better be prepared.And in adv mode it would actually give you more challenge to your tower raids.

What do you guys think about this?

[IndigoFenix]

Zombies can be modded, but a lot of zombie behavior is hard-coded and tied to the 'animate' action.  You cannot make zombies that are benign or intelligent, and presumably the 'no dodging or jumping' rule is the same.  You can make them more dangerous in other ways (make them faster, stronger, fire breathing, whatever).

Thralls are not zombies at all, but living creatures with a syndrome effect.  You can do whatever you want with them.

Are the nerfs not explicitly in the generated zombie syndrome for each world?  This would mean that any custom zombies would not have any handicaps at all. Undeath is actually a syndrome that afflicts creatures and gives them certain additional properties on top of those they already have.

No, not really.  The generated syndromes are almost the same as they used to be; they add effects like strength increases, speed decreases, removing blood and the need for brains and nerves.  They say they add OPPOSED_TO_LIFE, but actually any creature animated with ANIMATE will be opposed to life, even if you explicitly remove the tag; this is hard-coded behavior.

[pikachu17]

How about we give necromancers different types of zombies to summon according to their "necromancy skill"?

Maybe necromancers could start off weak as they still haven't mastered the skill to reanimate the dead so when they start creating their first zombies those will be like classic dumb and slow waking zombies.Then,as the necromancer improves his skill over time,the zombies he reanimates become more and more lethal,going from classic Homero zombies to the more faster Zombieland-like zombies to the more smarter Land of The Dead zombies(the ones that can actually use melee weapons but in a very poorly manner) and so on until the necro becomes so powerful(this after several in-game years,mind you) that he can summon full revenants(basically a zombie that can use armor,dodge,jump and use weapons just fine)

This system could be great for both modes.In fort mode the sieges of a necromancer would progressively get more dangerous as you build a successful fort over the years.That siege may take a while to get to you but when it does get your fort you better be prepared.And in adv mode it would actually give you more challenge to your tower raids.

What do you guys think about this?

i like the idea, and maybe they could also ghave to be highly skilled to raise powerful creaturs like dragons. by the way, I'm pretty sure,some movies or books have sorcerer's who's zombies can speak to them,dodge attacks, block with a shield, use weapons. besides couldn't a zombie unintentionally block attacks with a shield?

[GoblinCookie]

How about we give necromancers different types of zombies to summon according to their "necromancy skill"?

Maybe necromancers could start off weak as they still haven't mastered the skill to reanimate the dead so when they start creating their first zombies those will be like classic dumb and slow waking zombies.Then,as the necromancer improves his skill over time,the zombies he reanimates become more and more lethal,going from classic Homero zombies to the more faster Zombieland-like zombies to the more smarter Land of The Dead zombies(the ones that can actually use melee weapons but in a very poorly manner) and so on until the necro becomes so powerful(this after several in-game years,mind you) that he can summon full revenants(basically a zombie that can use armor,dodge,jump and use weapons just fine)

This system could be great for both modes.In fort mode the sieges of a necromancer would progressively get more dangerous as you build a successful fort over the years.That siege may take a while to get to you but when it does get your fort you better be prepared.And in adv mode it would actually give you more challenge to your tower raids.

What do you guys think about this?

Makes a lot of sense.  The new (nerfed zombies) are less alive in a sense, having fewer of the characteristics of living things so it would make sense that as necromancy progresses the ability would develop to make zombies that have more of the strengths of the living but none of the weaknesses. 

No, not really.  The generated syndromes are almost the same as they used to be; they add effects like strength increases, speed decreases, removing blood and the need for brains and nerves.  They say they add OPPOSED_TO_LIFE, but actually any creature animated with ANIMATE will be opposed to life, even if you explicitly remove the tag; this is hard-coded behavior.

I do not actually believe you; why would hard-coded behavior require a tag to add in something that is hardcoded anyway?  Perhaps the new limitations are hard-coded but I rather doubt that much hard-coding was in there initially, hence the zombies being initially overpowered; they are basically just creatures with a syndrome.  Of course in this case we are dealing with a funny kind of hardcoded by which a hardcoded script generates a softcoded raw file anyway.

[IndigoFenix]

No, not really.  The generated syndromes are almost the same as they used to be; they add effects like strength increases, speed decreases, removing blood and the need for brains and nerves.  They say they add OPPOSED_TO_LIFE, but actually any creature animated with ANIMATE will be opposed to life, even if you explicitly remove the tag; this is hard-coded behavior.

I do not actually believe you; why would hard-coded behavior require a tag to add in something that is hardcoded anyway?  Perhaps the new limitations are hard-coded but I rather doubt that much hard-coding was in there initially, hence the zombies being initially overpowered; they are basically just creatures with a syndrome.  Of course in this case we are dealing with a funny kind of hardcoded by which a hardcoded script generates a softcoded raw file anyway.

Hey, if you can manage to mod animated zombies that are not opposed to life, I'll tip my hat to you.  I've tried everything I can think of (I was trying to make fort-friendly necromancers but had no luck).

It probably is just an oversight on Toady's part; zombies have all kinds of special rules when it comes to loyalty so maybe the ADD_TAG:OPPOSED_TO_LIFE is just there as an artifact of an earlier system.

Note that husks/thralls are different; they are just creatures with a syndrome and if you remove the OPPOSED_TO_LIFE from the thralling cloud syndrome they will be friendly.

[pikachu17]

Okay, maybe the problem isn't vanilla. the problem is modders can't change zombies to be able to dodge and stuff, and since some movies,videogames and tv shows have undead that are intelligent, and can dodge, I find it annoying that modders don't have the option of better undead

[Dirst]

Okay, maybe the problem isn't vanilla. the problem is modders can't change zombies to be able to dodge and stuff, and since some movies,videogames and tv shows have undead that are intelligent, and can dodge, I find it annoying that modders don't have the option of better undead

There are lots of things in movies and TV that can't be rendered in Dwarf Fortress.  Love triangles, tattoos, boats, telepathy, liquid fuel, etc., etc., etc.

But it would be nice to have some control over the hardcoded interactions and syndromes.

[pikachu17]

dwarves don't have telepathy?

[IndigoFenix]

Okay, maybe the problem isn't vanilla. the problem is modders can't change zombies to be able to dodge and stuff, and since some movies,videogames and tv shows have undead that are intelligent, and can dodge, I find it annoying that modders don't have the option of better undead

There are lots of things in movies and TV that can't be rendered in Dwarf Fortress.  Love triangles, tattoos, boats, telepathy, liquid fuel, etc., etc., etc.

But it would be nice to have some control over the hardcoded interactions and syndromes.

The reason why zombies cannot be intelligent is because in DF's code, learned skills, personality traits and knowledge are tied to a creature's soul, and zombies have no soul.  (this shouldn't affect OPPOSED_TO_LIFE or dodging though)

There isn't a whole lot done with souls at this point, but the data structure suggests that Toady plans on doing a lot more.  (For example, it is possible for a creature to have multiple souls, or to switch the souls of two creatures with no problems.  There is no current method for doing this without hacking, but the system exists).

Hopefully we'll be able to have undead with souls at some point though.  Revenants (undead with ghost-like goals) would be a nice touch.

[pikachu17]

Okay, maybe the problem isn't vanilla. the problem is modders can't change zombies to be able to dodge and stuff, and since some movies,videogames and tv shows have undead that are intelligent, and can dodge, I find it annoying that modders don't have the option of better undead

There are lots of things in movies and TV that can't be rendered in Dwarf Fortress.  Love triangles, tattoos, boats, telepathy, liquid fuel, etc., etc., etc.

But it would be nice to have some control over the hardcoded interactions and syndromes.

well lets see, boats and tattoos are going to be added. and lots of threetoe stories have love triangles so that might eventually be added.magma is a liquid fuel and dwarves seem to have telepathy.