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[Willfor]

Reelya, tone is not what you say, it's how you say it. If you use more pillow words, you will seem calm. For instance:

"What? How any I stopping people talk about anything? By presenting research articles that don't confirm with your beliefs?" <- This is an attack phrase couched inside a defensive reaction. It is immediately pushing someone toward the defensive. Whenever you say things in this manner it is presenting your argument as if you are already completely in the right, and by extension, anyone you're directing it to is in the wrong. You sound defensive, and you sound hostile, as if I am attacking you, which is why I immediately phrased my next post in such a way that my intentions towards non-hostility were even more clear.

Most of your replies to this thread have been cases of brusk presentation in your words, extremely bare presentation of your opinions, and it reads like someone who is fighting for something. Which is why I posed the question in the first place, because I didn't know whether you were actually trying to be hostile, or unaware of what you sounded like.

This is basically the cause of like, 20% of the disagreements on Bay12. It's entirely possible to convey tone with the way one presents onesself on a forum, and when one is not actively trying to convey a certain tone, one often end up seeming like one's angry.

[Reelya]

extremely bare presentation of your opinions

Well, filling up a page of fluff would not get the point across. I've provided citations for pretty much every assertion I've made.

And I only got defensive because of a direct personal challenge:

Reelya, I am really, really trying not to think of you as someone who is obsessed with telling people to stop talking about any issues they might face in regards to discrimination whatsoever, and would just like some confirmation that this is not what you are, in fact, trying to say.

I could have gone more into depth here. It's has the marks of a strawman (and ad hominem) argument, and challenges my right to say things without actually having any substance to the argument. This was our very first interaction. And it itself smacks of passive-aggressive "I don't want to believe you're a massive douchebag, but ..."

In fact, you accuse me of trying to shut people up, but this statement is clearly the kind of statement that does just that. I asked you for an example of where I tried to stop people from "talking about any issues they might face in regards to discrimination whatsoever", but you haven't provided any evidence of that.

[nullBolt]

Reelya, tone is not what you say, it's how you say it. If you use more pillow words, you will seem calm. For instance:

"What? How any I stopping people talk about anything? By presenting research articles that don't confirm with your beliefs?" <- This is an attack phrase couched inside a defensive reaction. It is immediately pushing someone toward the defensive. Whenever you say things in this manner it is presenting your argument as if you are already completely in the right, and by extension, anyone you're directing it to is in the wrong. You sound defensive, and you sound hostile, as if I am attacking you, which is why I immediately phrased my next post in such a way that my intentions towards non-hostility were even more clear.

Most of your replies to this thread have been cases of brusk presentation in your words, extremely bare presentation of your opinions, and it reads like someone who is fighting for something. Which is why I posed the question in the first place, because I didn't know whether you were actually trying to be hostile, or unaware of what you sounded like.

This is basically the cause of like, 20% of the disagreements on Bay12. It's entirely possible to convey tone with the way one presents onesself on a forum, and when one is not actively trying to convey a certain tone, one often end up seeming like one's angry.

My question is: Why does literally any of this matter?

Reelya has presented his opinions. Why has it became a matter of his tone rather than if he's right or wrong? Why not address his arguments, instead?

[Loud Whispers]

Reelya, I am really, really trying not to think of you as someone who is obsessed with telling people to stop talking about any issues they might face in regards to discrimination whatsoever, and would just like some confirmation that this is not what you are, in fact, trying to say.

Only nerds care about things

And in addition, the sexism that is PARTICULARLY applied in STEM fields against women in regards to hiring also drives them away from majoring in those fields. I mean, think about it, if a woman has an interest in engineering, but she knows there's a good chance she will be discriminated against and end up jobless after 4 years of school, that might kinda deter her from pursuing an engineering career, right?

Considering how many pursue useless humanities that will make them end up jobless after 4 years of school I don't think women are as spineless as you'd suggest, you go after a vocation you live it and breathe it and if you get discriminated against just sue the fuck out of everyone like Murrica has perfected

I'd like to quickly point out that racially-based affirmative action after a long, long recent history of oppression and massively inadequate education is completely different to gender-based affirmative action in the modern, Western world.

No, both fuck over Chinese immigrants for being too hard working and too smart

I'm not a huge fan of either, but the one under discussion is in many ways less likely to cause issues.

P R O B L E M A T I C

My question is: Why does literally any of this matter?
Reelya has presented his opinions. Why has it became a matter of his tone rather than if he's right or wrong? Why not address his arguments, instead?

feels

[Willfor]

extremely bare presentation of your opinions

Well, filling up a page of fluff would not get the point across. I've provided citations for pretty much every assertion I've made.

And I only got defensive because of a direct personal challenge:

Reelya, I am really, really trying not to think of you as someone who is obsessed with telling people to stop talking about any issues they might face in regards to discrimination whatsoever, and would just like some confirmation that this is not what you are, in fact, trying to say.

I could have gone more into depth here. It's has the marks of a strawman argument, and challenges my right to say things without actually having any substance to the argument. This was our first interaction. And it itself smacks of passive-aggressive "I don't want to believe you're a massive douchebag, but ..."

And it ended up that I had completely misread what you were trying to say because I didn't understand what you were trying to say with all of the links. That is on me, yes, but it was because I couldn't understand what kind of argument you were trying to make through the rest of your posts. That "fluff" would have helped me to contextualize what you were trying to say. Death of the author; I can only read into what you are trying to say what you put on the page.

Reelya has presented his opinions. Why has it became a matter of his tone rather than if he's right or wrong? Why not address his arguments, instead?

That's extremely simple: I don't have anything to address in his arguments.

I have, however, of the course of our history on the forums, misread what Reelya has tried to say about 200 times in various threads, and watched him get into arguments with various people based on miscommunications.

[Reelya]

200 times? I post regularly in about 3 threads. About 99% of my posts are in the anime thread, so i'm not sure where you're getting that.

[Willfor]

WHY IS HYPERBOLE UNACCEPTABLE ON THIS FORUM

^ This is how to look angry on a post, btw.

[Loud Whispers]

Maybe confused you with any of the other forumites, just the other day I confused you with Rolepgeek, or maybe I confused Rolepgeek with you
Probably both tbh

WHY IS HYPERBOLE UNACCEPTABLE ON THIS FORUM

^ This is how to look angry on a post, btw.

ANGER IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER, CURRY IN THE GUT OF MY SOUL
PILLOW WORDS ONLY BELONG TO THE OLD TO SUFFOCATE IN OR THE NEET TO CRY IN

[Reelya]

Willfor, it really feels like you're not discussing anything in good faith. you're just derailing because you disagree with some of the things I wrote, and now you're claiming I regularly get involved in heated arguments on the forums, but I dispute that that is the case, and it seems like that's just to put me further on the defensive and discredit my opinions, or try and rile me up to have an outburst. It feels like your only logical goal here is to get the thread locked.

I asked you before to point out specifically which posts you thought were hostile (which occurred before you made that point), and you've failed to point any out, so how can I know how to modify what I'm doing in the future? Since it's a common occurrence, perhaps you can think of some examples where I overstepped in other threads too?

[Wolfhunter107]

Please don't escalate to personal attacks, you two.

[Willfor]

It's not a common occurrence, it's not an attempt to derail, and I am not trying to argue in bad faith, it's just been like, months since the last time I saw it happen, and I don't have time today to go digging through post histories for specific examples. God, I've phrased everything I've tried to say poorly. I am not attempting to try to make you feel bad, I was trying to point out something that I have seen, on a few occasions (Not all occasions) and I like you as a poster, so I was trying to use this conversation as a helpful point of discussion after I started out so poorly.

So far I don't see any possible sign of the thread getting locked, neither of us have been tossing insults at each other, so I am sort of surprised you think I'm going for that. @_@

[Antioch]

Just drop the issue and get back on topic.

[Loud Whispers]

Saying fuck doesn't get threads locked m9, threads derailing into tone police and racial forum profiling does
Seriously check the last proggy thread that got rekt, it was a passionate debate with no insults and badonks of sources but the clashes of egos and mass reporting killed it anyways

[Antioch]

Saying fuck doesn't get threads locked m9, threads derailing into tone police and racial forum profiling does
Seriously check the last proggy thread that got rekt, it was a passionate debate with no insults and badonks of sources but the clashes of egos and mass reporting killed it anyways

Just drop the issue and get back on topic.

Now please.

[Loud Whispers]

In a word; merit