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[Parsely]

You're only supposed to read them if a specific dwarf interests you and you want to know more about how to torture them. You don't HAVE to know or use all this detail, but it IS there if you want it.

[Dorsidwarf]

The people parroting "it's all optional" might be more useful if they read his actual complaint - that 'grey goo' proceduralisation and excessive detail have made it confusing and overwhelming to get data he wants about, for example, his dwarves.
He wants to know whether dabbling swords dwarf X is worth training up, he has to sort through the information that they are unfettered by academic discourse, value knowledge in all forms, and we're once a member of an unknown organisation called the Wavering of Wheels. What's that group? There's no way to tell without external interfaces or time consuming saves cunning only to find that this was a group of refugees from the fortress The Ashes of Prancing after the Group of Benigness overthrew it.

And after all that stuff sorted through, she is very weak and abhors violence in all forms.

DF needs to sort its dwarf info out, man. Not less detail, but arranged more usefully.

[Shonai_Dweller]

While I agree that the issue is presentation of information not amount (the more the better, thanks!). What the OP actually said there was too much information and that cutting it down is the solution. Most responders disagreed and the main suggestion was that if arranged better, 10 times the information would still be fun.

I created a small world with 7 civs and 150 years to try to cut back on how much was going on, but still I have 8.5k historical figures and 400 different groups and sites and about 200 artifacts made by necromancers and it's just way, way, way too much to even read a fraction of let alone remember or comprehend

I think it's interesting to have a bit of randomly generated detail to give individual character, but the game crossed the line between interesting and completely and utterly overwhelming about 50 miles ago. I really think less is more in this situation. If every dwarf only had 1 or 2 likes and personality traits it would make them stand out a lot more than having a wall of text. I might be able to follow the events of the world if every group of random vagrants didn't give themselves a stupid name and think their trudge across the desert of loathing was as important as the fact that the capitol city of my dwarves was just conquered by the elves. Why do we even so many group names anyway? There's the civilization name, the group name, and the site name. Couldn't we just ditch the middle one so instead of the Living Tombs from the Handle of Zeal founding Bootproblems, it's just the Handle of Zeal founds Bootproblems? Why do they need to be an independent group as well as part of a civilization?

Does anybody actually read all this stuff and not find it completely repetitive and overwhelming?

[Parsely]

The people parroting "it's all optional" might be more useful if they read his actual complaint - that 'grey goo' proceduralisation and excessive detail have made it confusing and overwhelming to get data he wants about, for example, his dwarves. \

He wants to know whether dabbling swords dwarf X is worth training up, he has to sort through the information that they are unfettered by academic discourse, value knowledge in all forms, and we're once a member of an unknown organisation called the Wavering of Wheels. What's that group? There's no way to tell without external interfaces or time consuming saves cunning only to find that this was a group of refugees from the fortress The Ashes of Prancing after the Group of Benigness overthrew it.

And after all that stuff sorted through, she is very weak and abhors violence in all forms.

DF needs to sort its dwarf info out, man. Not less detail, but arranged more usefully.

You've taken his opinion and substituted your own. That's not what he said in the OP. He suggested less detail, not better ways of finding it.

[Dorsidwarf]

The people parroting "it's all optional" might be more useful if they read his actual complaint - that 'grey goo' proceduralisation and excessive detail have made it confusing and overwhelming to get data he wants about, for example, his dwarves. \

He wants to know whether dabbling swords dwarf X is worth training up, he has to sort through the information that they are unfettered by academic discourse, value knowledge in all forms, and we're once a member of an unknown organisation called the Wavering of Wheels. What's that group? There's no way to tell without external interfaces or time consuming saves cunning only to find that this was a group of refugees from the fortress The Ashes of Prancing after the Group of Benigness overthrew it.

And after all that stuff sorted through, she is very weak and abhors violence in all forms.

DF needs to sort its dwarf info out, man. Not less detail, but arranged more usefully.

You've taken his opinion and substituted your own. That's not what he said in the OP. He suggested less detail, not better ways of finding it.

After a rea-read of his post, I find myself forced to agree that I misread it.

[Urist_McArathos]

The people parroting "it's all optional" might be more useful if they read his actual complaint - that 'grey goo' proceduralisation and excessive detail have made it confusing and overwhelming to get data he wants about, for example, his dwarves. \

He wants to know whether dabbling swords dwarf X is worth training up, he has to sort through the information that they are unfettered by academic discourse, value knowledge in all forms, and we're once a member of an unknown organisation called the Wavering of Wheels. What's that group? There's no way to tell without external interfaces or time consuming saves cunning only to find that this was a group of refugees from the fortress The Ashes of Prancing after the Group of Benigness overthrew it.

And after all that stuff sorted through, she is very weak and abhors violence in all forms.

DF needs to sort its dwarf info out, man. Not less detail, but arranged more usefully.

You've taken his opinion and substituted your own. That's not what he said in the OP. He suggested less detail, not better ways of finding it.

After a rea-read of his post, I find myself forced to agree that I misread it.

"On your left, you'll see the closest Bay12 ever normally gets to a flame war..."

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Bay12, the one place on the internet where people admit they're wrong.

[Deon]

Most of the stuff was already said here, and it is pretty obvious for long-term players. DF interface is MEH and it is much better if you play with side utilities like Legends Viewer and Dwarf Therapist.

It's just the development process. Toady One focuses on other stuff before presentation.

And you are welcome to make a utility which will sort through your dwarves and point at the important information.
You can also mod raws to make personality traits pretty much static, that way you can get rid of those you don't like.

The naming process is the only thing I have a gripe with. Hopefully it is going to be improved with time.

By the way, if you are one of those who want to "find people better fit for a role", Dwarf Therapist does it for you:

[Dirst]

Bay12, the one place on the internet where people admit they're wrong.

Have we just proved that bay12forums.com is not on the Internet?

[miauw62]

Bay12? Free of flamewars? I'll give the gay dwarves thread as a recent-ish example.

Also Deon dorsi specifically mentioned "without external utilities", which seems fair. There is no way to get to know more about dwarves' previous groups without legends viewer or opening a copy of the save in legends mode. Same goes for figures on engravings and many other things.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Bay12? Free of flamewars? I'll give the gay dwarves thread as a recent-ish example.

Also Deon dorsi specifically mentioned "without external utilities", which seems fair. There is no way to get to know more about dwarves' previous groups without legends viewer or opening a copy of the save in legends mode. Same goes for figures on engravings and many other things.

But vanilla DF offers you the option to export maps and an (incomplete) xml of legends in order for you to browse in a more convenient form. So it's kind of expecting you to use something like legends viewer.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Bay12? Free of flamewars? I'll give the gay dwarves thread as a recent-ish example.

I never said it's free of flamewars, I just said people sometimes-ish admit they're wrong.

Which is still better than most of the internet.

[Ghills]

Bay12? Free of flamewars? I'll give the gay dwarves thread as a recent-ish example.

Also Deon dorsi specifically mentioned "without external utilities", which seems fair. There is no way to get to know more about dwarves' previous groups without legends viewer or opening a copy of the save in legends mode. Same goes for figures on engravings and many other things.

There was a flamewar about that? I vaguely remember people disagreeing, but nothing serious.

Practically requiring people to use external utilities and/or mods to understand, and quite often to play, the game is a shoddy, amateur mistake that other game studios get crucified for.  I will never understand why people give Toady a pass for it.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

Practically requiring people to use external utilities and/or mods to understand, and quite often to play, the game is a shoddy, amateur mistake that other game studios get crucified for.  I will never understand why people give Toady a pass for it.

A few things. First of all, they're not required. I play DF without the aid of any external utilities, just fine. I think people over emphasize the degree to which one needs to micromanage one's fort.

Secondly, Dwarf Fortress is a perpetual alpha, gratis. If I had to pay for DF, I know that I'd expect a lot more out of it. As it is, I don't, so I'm quite thankful that I get to play it at all.

Finally, DF isn't just another game. Its simulatory nature, its lack of an endpoint, etc. mean that its shortcomings are far less crippling than they would be for a standard game. There is a plethora of things to do in DF, and if one doesn't work, there are always others that do.
 

[cephalo]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to say that all the details serve to give confidence that the detail is there if needed. It functions as a guide for your internal story crafting while you play.